Is there a true dem or liberal on this board?

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HokieFanDC
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Re: Is there a true dem or liberal on this board?

Post by HokieFanDC »

USN_Hokie wrote:
BG Hokie wrote:
Really strong post, ip. USN Hokie is the type of neck that wears a Cooter brimmed hat with a fishing hook on it. He's a really cool feller.
I like how you chivers put the stickers on the back of your car. Makes it easier to identify the low self-esteem, underachieving, alcoholic white trash on the road.

This guy was a classic representation of what I think of when I think of a Bernie supporter. I was at a stoplight, and this guy was in front of me. As the light was turning green, he got out of his car to take off one of the roof racks. I'm assuming he did that b/c it was about to fly off, and was rattling. He didn't even have to loosen it. Just grabbed it, shook it a little, and put it in his back seat. Then, proceeded to slowly get back in has banged up Toyo Echo with a duct tape taillight, and drive very slowly down the road. He also had the standard LA douche hat on...stocking cap in something 70-85 degree weather.

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awesome guy
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Re: Is there a true dem or liberal on this board?

Post by awesome guy »

USN_Hokie wrote:
awesome guy wrote:
Hokie5150 wrote:
awesome guy wrote:I'm not the ignorant one Ace ...
Your posts on the matter of libertarianism and classic liberalism show quite plainly otherwise...

Another swing and a miss. Classical liberalism isn't libertarianism. At best, you're conflating federalism with libertarianism. But I think ya'll like to say such ignorant things to take on a legacy that you don't have.
Actually, in The Road the Serfdom, Hayek refers to himself and his political theory as "liberalism." The modern forward in recent editions has a good discussion on the etymology of the word, which was commonly used to describe what would be called libertarianism today in the pre-WW2 period, but mostly in Britain.

ETA: With that said, Hayek would roll in his grave if he knew TheH2 was calling himself a classical liberal.
I disagree. Modern libertarians are all about property rights and standing up "voluntary governments". They see liberty as a consequence of absolute property rights. Just think of Marine Hokie or Bulab, think they're closer to George Washington or Noam Chomsky? Washington and company were for a limited federal government, but robust state and local governments based on the local preferences. Libertarians are for limited (or no) government across all levels.
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USN_Hokie
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Re: Is there a true dem or liberal on this board?

Post by USN_Hokie »

Holy giant picture, Batman. :)
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USN_Hokie
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Re: Is there a true dem or liberal on this board?

Post by USN_Hokie »

awesome guy wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:
awesome guy wrote:
Hokie5150 wrote:
awesome guy wrote:I'm not the ignorant one Ace ...
Your posts on the matter of libertarianism and classic liberalism show quite plainly otherwise...

Another swing and a miss. Classical liberalism isn't libertarianism. At best, you're conflating federalism with libertarianism. But I think ya'll like to say such ignorant things to take on a legacy that you don't have.
Actually, in The Road the Serfdom, Hayek refers to himself and his political theory as "liberalism." The modern forward in recent editions has a good discussion on the etymology of the word, which was commonly used to describe what would be called libertarianism today in the pre-WW2 period, but mostly in Britain.

ETA: With that said, Hayek would roll in his grave if he knew TheH2 was calling himself a classical liberal.
I disagree. Modern libertarians are all about property rights and standing up "voluntary governments". They see liberty as a consequence of absolute property rights. Just think of Marine Hokie or Bulab, think they're closer to George Washington or Noam Chomsky? Washington and company were for a limited federal government, but robust state and local governments based on the local preferences. Libertarians are for limited (or no) government across all levels.
I don't necessarily disagree, but that's a far more nuanced position than I understood from your earlier posts.
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Re: Is there a true dem or liberal on this board?

Post by BG Hokie »

awesome guy wrote:
BG Hokie wrote:
awesome guy wrote:
Are you mad at him burning you on the lounge?
What, specifically, are you talking about? I'm not familiar.

Your dumb Cooter dig.
Oh, bless your heart, you didn't understand the question. How, specifically, was I burned on the Lounge?
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Re: Is there a true dem or liberal on this board?

Post by awesome guy »

BG Hokie wrote:
awesome guy wrote:
BG Hokie wrote:
awesome guy wrote:
Are you mad at him burning you on the lounge?
What, specifically, are you talking about? I'm not familiar.

Your dumb Cooter dig.
Oh, bless your heart, you didn't understand the question. How, specifically, was I burned on the Lounge?

Just told you douchebag.
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BG Hokie
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Re: Is there a true dem or liberal on this board?

Post by BG Hokie »

awesome guy wrote:
BG Hokie wrote:
awesome guy wrote:
BG Hokie wrote:
awesome guy wrote:
Are you mad at him burning you on the lounge?
What, specifically, are you talking about? I'm not familiar.

Your dumb Cooter dig.
Oh, bless your heart, you didn't understand the question. How, specifically, was I burned on the Lounge?

Just told you douchebag.
Oh, bless your heart. My Cooter comment IS how USN burned me on the Lounge. Clearly, that makes a lot of sense.
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awesome guy
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Re: Is there a true dem or liberal on this board?

Post by awesome guy »

USN_Hokie wrote:
awesome guy wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:
awesome guy wrote:
Hokie5150 wrote:
awesome guy wrote:I'm not the ignorant one Ace ...
Your posts on the matter of libertarianism and classic liberalism show quite plainly otherwise...

Another swing and a miss. Classical liberalism isn't libertarianism. At best, you're conflating federalism with libertarianism. But I think ya'll like to say such ignorant things to take on a legacy that you don't have.
Actually, in The Road the Serfdom, Hayek refers to himself and his political theory as "liberalism." The modern forward in recent editions has a good discussion on the etymology of the word, which was commonly used to describe what would be called libertarianism today in the pre-WW2 period, but mostly in Britain.

ETA: With that said, Hayek would roll in his grave if he knew TheH2 was calling himself a classical liberal.
I disagree. Modern libertarians are all about property rights and standing up "voluntary governments". They see liberty as a consequence of absolute property rights. Just think of Marine Hokie or Bulab, think they're closer to George Washington or Noam Chomsky? Washington and company were for a limited federal government, but robust state and local governments based on the local preferences. Libertarians are for limited (or no) government across all levels.
I don't necessarily disagree, but that's a far more nuanced position than I understood from your earlier posts.
I don't see it as nuanced. Conservatives are for the the concepts of federalism and limited federal control that the founders were for. For states, they have a lot more leeway as to what they want, provided it fits within in the broader constitutional constructs. Libertarians are for no government across the board. Or one in name only where you can freely choose to enter or leave it as it's not bound by geography and is instead bound by contracts. In their world, even the rivers and oceans are someone's property to control as they see fit. I think it's really closer to feudalism or at least creates that type of environment.
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Re: Is there a true dem or liberal on this board?

Post by awesome guy »

BG Hokie wrote:
awesome guy wrote:
BG Hokie wrote:
awesome guy wrote:
BG Hokie wrote:
awesome guy wrote:
Are you mad at him burning you on the lounge?
What, specifically, are you talking about? I'm not familiar.

Your dumb Cooter dig.
Oh, bless your heart, you didn't understand the question. How, specifically, was I burned on the Lounge?

Just told you douchebag.
Oh, bless your heart. My Cooter comment IS how USN burned me on the Lounge. Clearly, that makes a lot of sense.
I'm not concerned that you don't understand for the same reasons I'm not concerned that my dog doesn't understand calculus.
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HokieFanDC
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Re: Is there a true dem or liberal on this board?

Post by HokieFanDC »

USN_Hokie wrote:Holy giant picture, Batman. :)
I don't know how to shrink it on UWS. Oh well.
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Hokie5150
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Re: Is there a true dem or liberal on this board?

Post by Hokie5150 »

awesome guy wrote:Libertarians are for no government across the board. Or one in name only where you can freely choose to enter or leave it as it's not bound by geography and is instead bound by contracts. In their world, even the rivers and oceans are someone's property to control as they see fit. I think it's really closer to feudalism or at least creates that type of environment.
Here is where you go completely off the reality train. Libertarians are not "for no government across the board." They are for a government that is constrained in power and scope and one that is dedicated to the protection of liberty and the protection of private property rights...you know, funny little things like "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness".
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Re: Is there a true dem or liberal on this board?

Post by awesome guy »

Hokie5150 wrote:
awesome guy wrote:Libertarians are for no government across the board. Or one in name only where you can freely choose to enter or leave it as it's not bound by geography and is instead bound by contracts. In their world, even the rivers and oceans are someone's property to control as they see fit. I think it's really closer to feudalism or at least creates that type of environment.
Here is where you go completely off the reality train. Libertarians are not "for no government across the board." They are for a government that is constrained in power and scope and one that is dedicated to the protection of liberty and the protection of private property rights...you know, funny little things like "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness".

They're not. Look it up and read instead of pounding your chest like an orangutan. You're describing a conservative.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism
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Hokie5150
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Re: Is there a true dem or liberal on this board?

Post by Hokie5150 »

awesome guy wrote:
Hokie5150 wrote:
awesome guy wrote:Libertarians are for no government across the board. Or one in name only where you can freely choose to enter or leave it as it's not bound by geography and is instead bound by contracts. In their world, even the rivers and oceans are someone's property to control as they see fit. I think it's really closer to feudalism or at least creates that type of environment.
Here is where you go completely off the reality train. Libertarians are not "for no government across the board." They are for a government that is constrained in power and scope and one that is dedicated to the protection of liberty and the protection of private property rights...you know, funny little things like "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness".

They're not. Look it up and read instead of pounding your chest like an orangutan. You're describing a conservative.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism
Only Anarcho-capitalist (which is an off-shoot of libertarian philosophy) call for no government whatsoever. Here's a good primer for you start with...
http://www.amazon.com/The-Libertarian-M ... 1476752842
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Re: Is there a true dem or liberal on this board?

Post by absolutvt03 »

USN_Hokie wrote:
absolutvt03 wrote:
BG Hokie wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:
ieatbacon wrote: Then why does BG claim to vote for Republicans? Do you think he's lying about that for some sort of UWS debate tactical advantage or something? I'm curious how this logic plays out...
So what? You probably would say the same, no? It might be a rouse, or he might actually believe it (maybe he voted for Bush in '92...or the republican treasurer for his township). Hell, a lot of voters are just unprincipled, straight-up idiots whose opinions only verify they're able to string together sentences on a keyboard.
USN Hokie likes butt stuff and I think that's his prerogative. There, I'm liberal on the gaze!
By his own logic, he's remained silent on the matter in this thread and therefore supports it.
Who are you a retread of? Shortstumphokie? He always used to make incoherent arguments and then run away, sort of like you.

I like how you think I'm someone you've known before. I'm not. I've posted on TSL under this name since it was Hokie Central. I made my name here the same because I'm not trying to hide or be someone else. And it's hilarious that you find my argument "incoherent" since I was mocking an argument you made in another thread.
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USN_Hokie
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Re: Is there a true dem or liberal on this board?

Post by USN_Hokie »

absolutvt03 wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:
absolutvt03 wrote:
BG Hokie wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:
ieatbacon wrote: Then why does BG claim to vote for Republicans? Do you think he's lying about that for some sort of UWS debate tactical advantage or something? I'm curious how this logic plays out...
So what? You probably would say the same, no? It might be a rouse, or he might actually believe it (maybe he voted for Bush in '92...or the republican treasurer for his township). Hell, a lot of voters are just unprincipled, straight-up idiots whose opinions only verify they're able to string together sentences on a keyboard.
USN Hokie likes butt stuff and I think that's his prerogative. There, I'm liberal on the gaze!
By his own logic, he's remained silent on the matter in this thread and therefore supports it.
Who are you a retread of? Shortstumphokie? He always used to make incoherent arguments and then run away, sort of like you.
I like how you think I'm someone you've known before. I'm not. I've posted on TSL under this name since it was Hokie Central. I made my name here the same because I'm not trying to hide or be someone else. And it's hilarious that you find my argument "incoherent" since I was mocking an argument you made in another thread.
No, you're just incoherent.
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Re: Is there a true dem or liberal on this board?

Post by RiverguyVT »

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/liberalism/#ClaLib

2.1 Classical Liberalism
Liberal political theory, then, fractures over the conception of liberty. But a more important division concerns the place of private property and the market order. For classical liberals — sometimes called the ‘old’ liberalism — liberty and private property are intimately related. From the eighteenth century right up to today, classical liberals have insisted that an economic system based on private property is uniquely consistent with individual liberty, allowing each to live her life —including employing her labor and her capital — as she sees fit. Indeed, classical liberals and libertarians have often asserted that in some way liberty and property are really the same thing; it has been argued, for example, that all rights, including liberty rights, are forms of property; others have maintained that property is itself a form of freedom (Gaus, 1994; Steiner, 1994). A market order based on private property is thus seen as an embodiment of freedom (Robbins, 1961: 104). Unless people are free to make contracts and to sell their labour, or unless they are free to save their incomes and then invest them as they see fit, or unless they are free to run enterprises when they have obtained the capital, they are not really free.

Classical liberals employ a second argument connecting liberty and private property. Rather than insisting that the freedom to obtain and employ private property is simply one aspect of people's liberty, this second argument insists that private property is the only effective means for the protection of liberty. Here the idea is that the dispersion of power that results from a free market economy based on private property protects the liberty of subjects against encroachments by the state. As F.A. Hayek argues, “There can be no freedom of press if the instruments of printing are under government control, no freedom of assembly if the needed rooms are so controlled, no freedom of movement if the means of transport are a government monopoly” (1978: 149).

Although classical liberals agree on the fundamental importance of private property to a free society, the classical liberal tradition itself refracts into a spectrum of views, from near-anarchist to those that attribute a significant role to the state in economic and social policy (on this spectrum, see Mack and Gaus, 2004). Towards the most extreme ‘libertarian’ end of the classical liberal spectrum are views of justified states as legitimate monopolies that may with justice charge for their necessary rights-protection services: taxation is legitimate so long as it is necessary to protect liberty and property rights. As we go further ‘leftward’ we encounter classical liberal views that allow taxation for (other) public goods and social infrastructure and, moving yet further ‘left’, some classical liberal views allow for a modest social minimum.(e.g., Hayek, 1976: 87). Most nineteenth century classical liberal economists endorsed a variety of state policies, encompassing not only the criminal law and enforcement of contracts, but the licensing of professionals, health, safety and fire regulations, banking regulations, commercial infrastructure (roads, harbors and canals) and often encouraged unionization (Gaus, 1983b). Although today classical liberalism is often associated with extreme forms of libertarianism, the classical liberal tradition was centrally concerned with bettering the lot of the working class. The aim, as Bentham put it, was to make the poor richer, not the rich poorer (Bentham, 1952 [1795]: vol. 1, 226n). Consequently, classical liberals reject the redistribution of wealth as a legitimate aim of government.
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Re: Is there a true dem or liberal on this board?

Post by houtexhokie »

Reporting for duty sir! But your own definitions of these may not fit reality.

Do you use the Rush definition?
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Re: Is there a true dem or liberal on this board?

Post by VoiceOfReason »

USN_Hokie wrote:
ieatbacon wrote: Out of USN's list, I'd guess only Uprising and VoiceofReason identify with the Democratic party or would call themselves left-of-center.
Uprising and VoR are to the left of mainstream democrats. BG, visorboy, and absolute are absolutely liberals. I forgot 'ol Elberto too....definitely a card-carrying liberal.
Nope. I am not left of mainstream Democrats in any way, shape or form. I am, however, left of center... particularly on social issues. I would say that mainstream Democrats represent my views quite well, with one exception. Candidates on the left need to take a stronger stance on addressing the budget deficit.
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UpstateSCHokie
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Re: Is there a true dem or liberal on this board?

Post by UpstateSCHokie »

USN_Hokie wrote:
chuckd4vt wrote:Just curious. Have you guys run them all off? I thought guys like Nolan or IP were Democrats, but they are claiming to be moderate Republicans. I guess it WAS me and HT. You guys attacked every aspect of my being and career, so I left. And it seems HT's found it redeeming to come here and drop outrageous bombs and watch as the dust settles. Anyhow, are there any real liberals here?

I know we're out there. Compared to the recent brand of American conservatism, most of the world's population would be considered liberal.
To name a few: absolutevt03, TheH2, BG Hokie, Uprising, VoiceofReason, Visorboy, HvilleHokie.

As I've noted before, you are good at lecturing others, but not a good listener/observer.
How could you forget fatman and Hoofighter? Those are two of the snarkiest and most incendiary leftists on the board. If you ever want to know what meme is making the rounds on the leftwing blogs, just read a fatman or Hoof post.
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