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Is it time to end the Jones Act?

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:28 pm
by ip_law-hokie
Which apparently states that only US ships can make deliveries between US ports to avoid large tariffs.

This includes Hawaii, Alaska and Puerto Rico. People in those areas think that the Jones Act is what drives up the cost of goods there.

I had never heard of this. It seems like a protectionist measure that may be doing more harm than good. I'd be open to its general repeal.

Here is an article about the situation in Puerto Rico, and why it wasn't temporarily lifted as it was in Texas and Florida.

https://jalopnik.com/heres-why-puerto-r ... 1818825248




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Re: Is it time to end the Jones Act?

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:43 pm
by RiverguyVT
Good article. Saw that this am.

Re: Is it time to end the Jones Act?

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:58 pm
by USN_Hokie
The Jones Act is a bit archaic and possibly unnecessary, but it has nothing to do with the current situation in PR.

I recall the Jones Act being mentioned a few years ago during the rock salt shortage that one bad winter when a foreign-flagged ship picking up salt couldn't be diverted to a US port where it was needed....or something like that.

Re: Is it time to end the Jones Act?

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:09 pm
by ip_law-hokie
USN_Hokie wrote:The Jones Act is a bit archaic and possibly unnecessary, but it has nothing to do with the current situation in PR.

I recall the Jones Act being mentioned a few years ago during the rock salt shortage that one bad winter when a foreign-flagged ship picking up salt couldn't be diverted to a US port where it was needed....or something like that.
I understand that the ports will be operating at capacity in any event.

But in general, if food and other exports could be sent to PR cheaper using foreign ships, the law really sucks for them. With respect to PR, it strikes me as imperialistic - something the Brits would have done in the past.


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Re: Is it time to end the Jones Act?

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:33 pm
by USN_Hokie
ip_law-hokie wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:The Jones Act is a bit archaic and possibly unnecessary, but it has nothing to do with the current situation in PR.

I recall the Jones Act being mentioned a few years ago during the rock salt shortage that one bad winter when a foreign-flagged ship picking up salt couldn't be diverted to a US port where it was needed....or something like that.
I understand that the ports will be operating at capacity in any event.

But in general, if food and other exports could be sent to PR cheaper using foreign ships, the law really sucks for them. With respect to PR, it strikes me as imperialistic - something the Brits would have done in the past.


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PR has received tons of perks from the US over the years . Arguing that they've been put in a disadvantage (or worse, trying to frame them as a colony being exploited) is ridiculous.

Re: Is it time to end the Jones Act?

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:59 pm
by ip_law-hokie
USN_Hokie wrote:
ip_law-hokie wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:The Jones Act is a bit archaic and possibly unnecessary, but it has nothing to do with the current situation in PR.

I recall the Jones Act being mentioned a few years ago during the rock salt shortage that one bad winter when a foreign-flagged ship picking up salt couldn't be diverted to a US port where it was needed....or something like that.
I understand that the ports will be operating at capacity in any event.

But in general, if food and other exports could be sent to PR cheaper using foreign ships, the law really sucks for them. With respect to PR, it strikes me as imperialistic - something the Brits would have done in the past.


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PR has received tons of perks from the US over the years . Arguing that they've been put in a disadvantage (or worse, trying to frame them as a colony being exploited) is ridiculous.
I don't disagree regarding the perks. Viewed in isolation, the shipping tariffs are protectionist and imperialistic with respect to PR. Why not at least end it with respect to PR, and adjust the perks?


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Re: Is it time to end the Jones Act?

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:10 pm
by RiverguyVT
Well... is there a 9/11 angle to this too? Security?

I know the act is pre-depression era, but think we aren't the only country that does this.

Re: Is it time to end the Jones Act?

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:14 pm
by ip_law-hokie
RiverguyVT wrote:Well... is there a 9/11 angle to this too? Security?

I know the act is pre-depression era, but think we aren't the only country that does this.
Not sure about 9/11. You raise a good point about other countries doing the same thing - they probably do.


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Re: Is it time to end the Jones Act?

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:18 pm
by RiverguyVT
I just found this... I learned something today.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchan ... ct_of_1920

Re: Is it time to end the Jones Act?

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:20 pm
by Major Kong

Re: Is it time to end the Jones Act?

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:28 pm
by Major Kong
When I worked in Alaska one of my jerbs was "managing" a port facility in the Northwest Arctic Borough. Manage was a relative term as the supervisors and workers did the job. I was there to sign paperwork. :)

Anyway foreign flagged vessels couldn't use our dock or ship loader...unless it was a huge emergency.

Foreign ships would anchor off shore then the goods would be transferred to American flagged barges and brought into the facility.

Re: Is it time to end the Jones Act?

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:39 pm
by ip_law-hokie
Major Kong wrote:When I worked in Alaska one of my jerbs was "managing" a port facility in the Northwest Arctic Borough. Manage was a relative term as the supervisors and workers did the job. I was there to sign paperwork. :)

Anyway foreign flagged vessels couldn't use our dock or ship loader...unless it was a huge emergency.

Foreign ships would anchor off shore then the goods would be transferred to American flagged barges and brought into the facility.
That's stupid. I'm going to look at your report when I have more time, but at this point believe it should be phased out in PR, HI and AK.

How many jerbs do you think this silliness creates?


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Re: Is it time to end the Jones Act?

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:47 pm
by RiverguyVT
ip_law-hokie wrote:
Major Kong wrote:When I worked in Alaska one of my jerbs was "managing" a port facility in the Northwest Arctic Borough. Manage was a relative term as the supervisors and workers did the job. I was there to sign paperwork. :)

Anyway foreign flagged vessels couldn't use our dock or ship loader...unless it was a huge emergency.

Foreign ships would anchor off shore then the goods would be transferred to American flagged barges and brought into the facility.
That's stupid. I'm going to look at your report when I have more time, but at this point believe it should be phased out in PR, HI and AK.

How many jerbs do you think this silliness creates?


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Read that report... and the wiki page. It isn't silliness.

Re: Is it time to end the Jones Act?

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:58 pm
by USN_Hokie
ip_law-hokie wrote:
RiverguyVT wrote:Well... is there a 9/11 angle to this too? Security?

I know the act is pre-depression era, but think we aren't the only country that does this.
Not sure about 9/11. You raise a good point about other countries doing the same thing - they probably do.


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Other countries are usually much worse.

Re: Is it time to end the Jones Act?

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:00 pm
by Major Kong
ip_law-hokie wrote:That's stupid. I'm going to look at your report when I have more time, but at this point believe it should be phased out in PR, HI and AK.

How many jerbs do you think this silliness creates?
I truly couldn't say as this was my first and only foray into port facilities. The USCG personnel at the port bitched more about the mosquitoes than anything else. :mrgreen:

Re: Is it time to end the Jones Act?

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:11 pm
by ip_law-hokie
RiverguyVT wrote:
ip_law-hokie wrote:
Major Kong wrote:When I worked in Alaska one of my jerbs was "managing" a port facility in the Northwest Arctic Borough. Manage was a relative term as the supervisors and workers did the job. I was there to sign paperwork. :)

Anyway foreign flagged vessels couldn't use our dock or ship loader...unless it was a huge emergency.

Foreign ships would anchor off shore then the goods would be transferred to American flagged barges and brought into the facility.
That's stupid. I'm going to look at your report when I have more time, but at this point believe it should be phased out in PR, HI and AK.

How many jerbs do you think this silliness creates?


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Read that report... and the wiki page. It isn't silliness.
Read the wiki. I'm very skeptical. Guam?

It strikes of crony capitalism and lobbyist influenced legislation to me.



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Re: Is it time to end the Jones Act?

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:19 pm
by RiverguyVT
I see it as more a border/defense thing

Re: Is it time to end the Jones Act?

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:38 pm
by ip_law-hokie
RiverguyVT wrote:I see it as more a border/defense thing
Sure, they use that to sell a lot of BS.

Re: Is it time to end the Jones Act?

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:13 am
by ip_law-hokie
RiverguyVT wrote:I see it as more a border/defense thing
Seems that I stand with the Cato institute here. Makes sense.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.nyt ... t.amp.html


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Re: Is it time to end the Jones Act?

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:02 am
by HokieFanDC
ip_law-hokie wrote:
RiverguyVT wrote:I see it as more a border/defense thing
Seems that I stand with the Cato institute here. Makes sense.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.nyt ... t.amp.html


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The Heritage Foundation thinks it should go too.

Is it time to end the Jones Act?

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:22 pm
by ip_law-hokie
USN_Hokie wrote:The Jones Act is a bit archaic and possibly unnecessary, but it has nothing to do with the current situation in PR.

.
Jones Act locally lifted due to the current situation in Puerto Rico.

Jones Act Waived for Puerto Rico, Easing Aid Shipments
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/28/us/j ... aived.html



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Re: Is it time to end the Jones Act?

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:50 pm
by Major Kong
ip_law-hokie wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:The Jones Act is a bit archaic and possibly unnecessary, but it has nothing to do with the current situation in PR.

.
Jones Act locally lifted due to the current situation in Puerto Rico.

Jones Act Waived for Puerto Rico, Easing Aid Shipments
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/28/us/j ... aived.html



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Gooderly.

Re: Is it time to end the Jones Act?

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:55 pm
by ip_law-hokie
Major Kong wrote:
ip_law-hokie wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:The Jones Act is a bit archaic and possibly unnecessary, but it has nothing to do with the current situation in PR.

.
Jones Act locally lifted due to the current situation in Puerto Rico.

Jones Act Waived for Puerto Rico, Easing Aid Shipments
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/28/us/j ... aived.html



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Gooderly.
Agree. Don't understand what changed between now and then, but glad he did it.


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Re: Is it time to end the Jones Act?

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:57 pm
by 133743Hokie
ip_law-hokie wrote:
Major Kong wrote:
ip_law-hokie wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:The Jones Act is a bit archaic and possibly unnecessary, but it has nothing to do with the current situation in PR.

.
Jones Act locally lifted due to the current situation in Puerto Rico.

Jones Act Waived for Puerto Rico, Easing Aid Shipments
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/28/us/j ... aived.html



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Gooderly.
Agree. Don't understand what changed between now and then, but glad he did it.


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I assume it is seen as a temporary measure to speed up relief to PR. It's in the US best interests at this time, until later when it isn't.

Re: Is it time to end the Jones Act?

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:58 pm
by awesome guy
133743Hokie wrote:
ip_law-hokie wrote:
Major Kong wrote:
ip_law-hokie wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:The Jones Act is a bit archaic and possibly unnecessary, but it has nothing to do with the current situation in PR.

.
Jones Act locally lifted due to the current situation in Puerto Rico.

Jones Act Waived for Puerto Rico, Easing Aid Shipments
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/28/us/j ... aived.html



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Gooderly.
Agree. Don't understand what changed between now and then, but glad he did it.


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I assume it is seen as a temporary measure to speed up relief to PR. It's in the US best interests at this time, until later when it isn't.
I think it's a PR move as the left was calling this Trump's Catrinia. Meaningless political move.