Trump admin considering citizenship questions to 2020 census

[133743Hokie]

So which is it?

fill me in.

Is this supposed to be some sort of "gotcha" from PBS & Buzzfeed?
Where does KOS stand on this?

Why should non-citizens be a part of a census?
Why shouldn't there be a citizenship question (other than the obvious 'overthrow/fundamentally change the US' usual reasons)
Who is John Gault?

Whooosh!!

This is example #Infinity of the POTUS lying. His supporters will mostly just believe him. Or when presented with evidence that his is lying (again), they will brush it off, or deflect.

As for the citizenship question, the stated purpose of the census is to count everyone in the country, not just citizens. The question of citizenship is not relevant to the purpose of the census.

Interesting.....I haven’t been paying all that much attention to this....but, didn’t the Administration say they want to delay the census to come up with a “better way to phrase the question”? Isn’t that what the SC basically said. The question that was originally proposed needs to be rephrased? Also, why isn’t the citizenship question relevant? 5hey sure as hell ask a ton of other questions that aren’t relevant,.....

It's not relevant b/c the purpose of the census isn't to count citizens, it's to count the entire population. And one main issue with asking ppl to answer a citizenship question is that it's likely to make ppl wary of the process and not participate.

Do you think it's a relevant question? Or do you think it's a ploy by the Trump admin to undercount the population to shift resources and potentially representation away from urban areas?

Finally, what other questions do you find irrelevant?

The census question is relevant to allow an informed congress to address the myraid immigration issueson the table. It is important for the country to know how many people are citizens and thus how many are not. As to other questions hiow about income, education level, race, etc., etc.

I think Trump wants to know how many illegals there are becuase he suspects it's more than the 11 to 20M normally quoted. I don't think non-responsive illegals are going to move the needle that much and I think that is just a potential byproduct and not the driving reason.

[awesome guy]

So which is it?

fill me in.

Is this supposed to be some sort of "gotcha" from PBS & Buzzfeed?
Where does KOS stand on this?

Why should non-citizens be a part of a census?
Why shouldn't there be a citizenship question (other than the obvious 'overthrow/fundamentally change the US' usual reasons)
Who is John Gault?

Thanks for the condescending response as usual. And over in that shitshow of a Captain Marvel thread you're trying to look like such a nice guy too.

And I'm done trying to convince people here about why liberals think they way they do, all that happens is I get shouted down.

This is a matter of the President openly defying a decision by the Supreme Court and calling it "fake" so that he can win over all his hordes of mouth breathers who don't understand the basic functions of government.

Serious question, why would anyone take you seriously? Look at how you present yourself, your signature, your refusal to debate anything, etc. You've made yourself into a caricature of a libtard.

Sent from my boat using VHF radio

[RiverguyVT]

So which is it?

fill me in.

Is this supposed to be some sort of "gotcha" from PBS & Buzzfeed?
Where does KOS stand on this?

Why should non-citizens be a part of a census?
Why shouldn't there be a citizenship question (other than the obvious 'overthrow/fundamentally change the US' usual reasons)
Who is John Gault?

Whooosh!!

This is example #Infinity of the POTUS lying. His supporters will mostly just believe him. Or when presented with evidence that his is lying (again), they will brush it off, or deflect.

As for the citizenship question, the stated purpose of the census is to count everyone in the country, not just citizens. The question of citizenship is not relevant to the purpose of the census.

The purpose of the census is to keep straight the # of representatives, and government expenditures.
So, yeah, citizenship would be a pretty important factor. Maybe the most important factor.

Looking at wiki, the issue of citizenship as it pertains to census is apparently addressed in the constitution w/r/t who is, and who is not, paying taxes:

he United States Census is a decennial census mandated by Article I, Section 2 of the United States Constitution, which states: “Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States... according to their respective Numbers... . The actual Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the first meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years”.[a][1] Section 2 of the 14th Amendment states: “Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State... excluding Indians not taxed...”

Trump lying- Sure he does. Absolutely. Is this such a case? Meh, I'm not going that far. I'm not a Trump fan. I don't know how many times I have to say that here, and further explain that, while I don't like the guy, much of what he gets done, I do like. Nor am I going to join the froth-at-the-mouth Trump haters who look for the most remote and inconsequential of transgressions and get worked up. (which, btw, is entirely inconsistent from those same people's last 10 years).

[HokieHam]

Questions about plumbing and kitchens are asked to gauge the quality and living conditions of the country's population. Having indoor plumbing and the ability to prepare food is a pretty standard basic living condition. And there are federal and local grants/funds that are disbursed based on housing quality and substandard conditions. That is why the questions are relevant.

Why is a citizenship question relevant?

You’re saying the census is just to count the entire population......so, why is the plumbing and kitchen question relevant?.......citizenship was relevant on the form through the ‘50’s. Why was it relevant then? Isn’t the Justice Department saying it would help in checking for violations to the voters rights act?? That might be helpful, no?

[HokieFanDC]

So which is it?

fill me in.

Is this supposed to be some sort of "gotcha" from PBS & Buzzfeed?
Where does KOS stand on this?

Why should non-citizens be a part of a census?
Why shouldn't there be a citizenship question (other than the obvious 'overthrow/fundamentally change the US' usual reasons)
Who is John Gault?

Whooosh!!

This is example #Infinity of the POTUS lying. His supporters will mostly just believe him. Or when presented with evidence that his is lying (again), they will brush it off, or deflect.

As for the citizenship question, the stated purpose of the census is to count everyone in the country, not just citizens. The question of citizenship is not relevant to the purpose of the census.

Thanks for the MSNBC take. They can ask whatever they want, and the SCOTUS ruling doesn't preclude it being asked, per se. Also, the citizenship question is irrelevant to congressional seats. Liberals' panties are in a wad because they say it will suppress people participating out of fear of being deported, but they're really just worried that people will see the scope of illegal immigration here.

Your entire response is simply ignorant. My take is based on 200 years of precedent and rulings. This statemtent, "They can ask whatever they want", is patently false. As for the reason that the admin wants the question, the evidence shows that they think it will help the GOP redraw congressional districts in their favor. Of course, the DOJ and DOC made the claim that it was to enforce the Voting Rights Act, but when asked to back that up, they couldn't answer how, ie they were FOS.

You may be right about the Dems reasons for not wanting it, but there are lots of other legitimate reasons why it isn't allowed. And none of the reasons the admin claimed made any sense at all. You know, because they were just making up shirt.

[RiverguyVT]

So which is it?

fill me in.

Is this supposed to be some sort of "gotcha" from PBS & Buzzfeed?
Where does KOS stand on this?

Why should non-citizens be a part of a census?
Why shouldn't there be a citizenship question (other than the obvious 'overthrow/fundamentally change the US' usual reasons)
Who is John Gault?

Thanks for the condescending response as usual. And over in that shitshow of a Captain Marvel thread you're trying to look like such a nice guy too.

And I'm done trying to convince people here about why liberals think they way they do, all that happens is I get shouted down.

This is a matter of the President openly defying a decision by the Supreme Court and calling it "fake" so that he can win over all his hordes of mouth breathers who don't understand the basic functions of government.

True, you get beat up here a lot, often without reason.
I apologize for being condescending, but honestly.. I don't see the two tweets as being completely contradictory nor fodder for a huge "ah-ha!" moment. I think you'll find that question -in some form or another- on the next census.

I'd think a basic function of government, and the census in particular, would be to know who is, and who isn't a citizen and how many of each exists. There is zero reason...zero....for not measuring that, unless one wants to "overthrow/fundamentally change the US"...which is exactly why today's (what used to be liberals but are now communists) would want that question off the census.

I was being serious. Why not ask that question? To what end is deleting it? Seriously.
No condescension there.

[HokieFanDC]

So which is it?

fill me in.

Is this supposed to be some sort of "gotcha" from PBS & Buzzfeed?
Where does KOS stand on this?

Why should non-citizens be a part of a census?
Why shouldn't there be a citizenship question (other than the obvious 'overthrow/fundamentally change the US' usual reasons)
Who is John Gault?

Whooosh!!

This is example #Infinity of the POTUS lying. His supporters will mostly just believe him. Or when presented with evidence that his is lying (again), they will brush it off, or deflect.

As for the citizenship question, the stated purpose of the census is to count everyone in the country, not just citizens. The question of citizenship is not relevant to the purpose of the census.

The purpose of the census is to keep straight the # of representatives, and government expenditures.
So, yeah, citizenship would be a pretty important factor. Maybe the most important factor.

Looking at wiki, the issue of citizenship as it pertains to census is apparently addressed in the constitution w/r/t who is, and who is not, paying taxes:

he United States Census is a decennial census mandated by Article I, Section 2 of the United States Constitution, which states: “Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States... according to their respective Numbers... . The actual Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the first meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years”.[a][1] Section 2 of the 14th Amendment states: “Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State... excluding Indians not taxed...”

Trump lying- Sure he does. Absolutely. Is this such a case? Meh, I'm not going that far. I'm not a Trump fan. I don't know how many times I have to say that here, and further explain that, while I don't like the guy, much of what he gets done, I do like. Nor am I going to join the froth-at-the-mouth Trump haters who look for the most remote and inconsequential of transgressions and get worked up. (which, btw, is entirely inconsistent from those same people's last 10 years).

The enumeration clause specifically says numbers, not citizens. Citizenship is never mentioned. So yes, it's addressed, in the form of exclusion as a purpose of the count.

Edit: As to whether Trump is lying...he's either lying or doesn't know that his Commerce Dept. is printing census docs without the question.
Take your pick. Liar, or clueless. Both are entirely possible.

[HokieFanDC]

Questions about plumbing and kitchens are asked to gauge the quality and living conditions of the country's population. Having indoor plumbing and the ability to prepare food is a pretty standard basic living condition. And there are federal and local grants/funds that are disbursed based on housing quality and substandard conditions. That is why the questions are relevant.

Why is a citizenship question relevant?

You’re saying the census is just to count the entire population......so, why is the plumbing and kitchen question relevant?.......citizenship was relevant on the form through the ‘50’s. Why was it relevant then? Isn’t the Justice Department saying it would help in checking for violations to the voters rights act?? That might be helpful, no?

There has never been a citizenship question asked to every person filling out a census.
I explained why questions about plumbing and kitchens are relevant. The main purpose is to count the entire population, but the ACS is also used to allocate funds and other resources, as well as draw congressional districts.

[USN_Hokie]

So which is it?

fill me in.

Is this supposed to be some sort of "gotcha" from PBS & Buzzfeed?
Where does KOS stand on this?

Why should non-citizens be a part of a census?
Why shouldn't there be a citizenship question (other than the obvious 'overthrow/fundamentally change the US' usual reasons)
Who is John Gault?

Whooosh!!

This is example #Infinity of the POTUS lying. His supporters will mostly just believe him. Or when presented with evidence that his is lying (again), they will brush it off, or deflect.

As for the citizenship question, the stated purpose of the census is to count everyone in the country, not just citizens. The question of citizenship is not relevant to the purpose of the census.

Thanks for the MSNBC take. They can ask whatever they want, and the SCOTUS ruling doesn't preclude it being asked, per se. Also, the citizenship question is irrelevant to congressional seats. Liberals' panties are in a wad because they say it will suppress people participating out of fear of being deported, but they're really just worried that people will see the scope of illegal immigration here.

Your entire response is simply ignorant. My take is based on 200 years of precedent and rulings. This statemtent, "They can ask whatever they want", is patently false. As for the reason that the admin wants the question, the evidence shows that they think it will help the GOP redraw congressional districts in their favor. Of course, the DOJ and DOC made the claim that it was to enforce the Voting Rights Act, but when asked to back that up, they couldn't answer how, ie they were FOS.

You may be right about the Dems reasons for not wanting it, but there are lots of other legitimate reasons why it isn't allowed. And none of the reasons the admin claimed made any sense at all. You know, because they were just making up shirt.

Your comment was falsely premised. Why don't you link to the op ed you read instead of pretending to be a Constitutional scholar who has studied 200yrs of census history.

[RiverguyVT]

The enumeration clause specifically says numbers, not citizens. Citizenship is never mentioned. So yes, it's addressed, in the form of exclusion as a purpose of the count.

So, if 12 million illegals all lived in New Mexico, your take is that New Mexico's # of reps should be adjusted upwards to reflect the population of people who aren't citizens, so to be represented in the US House?

Uh...no.

That's quite a headstand.
You're saying they addressed it, by not mentioning it? The purposeful omission is a way of addressing it? I disagry (no malice). By mentioning untaxed Indians, who would be understood to be tribally sovereign, the framers by my way of thinking directly addressed it. Mexicans living here illegally, non-US-citizens subject to Mexican laws, are almost identical to the untaxed Indian.

The main purpose of the census is to make sure US House representatives are spread properly. I've never read a letter of explanation from any founder/framer saying that non-citizens should be represented in the House.

[USN_Hokie]

Questions about plumbing and kitchens are asked to gauge the quality and living conditions of the country's population. Having indoor plumbing and the ability to prepare food is a pretty standard basic living condition. And there are federal and local grants/funds that are disbursed based on housing quality and substandard conditions. That is why the questions are relevant.

Why is a citizenship question relevant?

You’re saying the census is just to count the entire population......so, why is the plumbing and kitchen question relevant?.......citizenship was relevant on the form through the ‘50’s. Why was it relevant then? Isn’t the Justice Department saying it would help in checking for violations to the voters rights act?? That might be helpful, no?

There has never been a citizenship question asked to every person filling out a census.
I explained why questions about plumbing and kitchens are relevant. The main purpose is to count the entire population, but the ACS is also used to allocate funds and other resources, as well as draw congressional districts.

This is both wrong and purposely misleading. It was included either on every questionnaire or on long form questionnaires until 2000. The census bureau has traditionally asked whatever the hell it wants.

[RiverguyVT]

Take your pick. Liar, or clueless. Both are entirely possible.

Can I pick both?

[HokieFanDC]

The enumeration clause specifically says numbers, not citizens. Citizenship is never mentioned. So yes, it's addressed, in the form of exclusion as a purpose of the count.

So, if 12 million illegals all lived in New Mexico, your take is that New Mexico's # of reps should be adjusted upwards to reflect the population of people who aren't citizens, so to be represented in the US House?

Uh...no.

That's quite a headstand.
You're saying they addressed it, by not mentioning it? The purposeful omission is a way of addressing it? I disagry (no malice). By mentioning untaxed Indians, who would be understood to be tribally sovereign, the framers by my way of thinking directly addressed it. Mexicans living here illegally, non-US-citizens subject to Mexican laws, are almost identical to the untaxed Indian.

The main purpose of the census is to make sure US House representatives are spread properly. I've never read a letter of explanation from any founder/framer saying that non-citizens should be represented in the House.

Your question about counting illegal immigrants for reapportionment has gone before the courts several times, and has been upheld every time.
Do I think it's the right thing to do? No. But that's the current situation.

As to the omission question, yes. They chose to use "numbers", and "inhabitants", instead of citizens. And they chose to carve out a specific group on non-citizens, and no others. If they had wanted it to be citizens, they would have said citizens.

[133743Hokie]

Questions about plumbing and kitchens are asked to gauge the quality and living conditions of the country's population. Having indoor plumbing and the ability to prepare food is a pretty standard basic living condition. And there are federal and local grants/funds that are disbursed based on housing quality and substandard conditions. That is why the questions are relevant.

Why is a citizenship question relevant?

You’re saying the census is just to count the entire population......so, why is the plumbing and kitchen question relevant?.......citizenship was relevant on the form through the ‘50’s. Why was it relevant then? Isn’t the Justice Department saying it would help in checking for violations to the voters rights act?? That might be helpful, no?

There has never been a citizenship question asked to every person filling out a census.
I explained why questions about plumbing and kitchens are relevant. The main purpose is to count the entire population, but the ACS is also used to allocate funds and other resources, as well as draw congressional districts.

This is both wrong and purposely misleading. It was included either on every questionnaire or on long form questionnaires until 2000. The census bureau has traditionally asked whatever the hell it wants.

Yes, it was on the core census form until 1950 I believe. Almost 100 million people received the long form census in 2010 where the question was asked. This isn't new ground being broken. It's just that both parties now see the politics in it.

[HokieHam]

Questions about plumbing and kitchens are asked to gauge the quality and living conditions of the country's population. Having indoor plumbing and the ability to prepare food is a pretty standard basic living condition. And there are federal and local grants/funds that are disbursed based on housing quality and substandard conditions. That is why the questions are relevant.

Why is a citizenship question relevant?

You’re saying the census is just to count the entire population......so, why is the plumbing and kitchen question relevant?.......citizenship was relevant on the form through the ‘50’s. Why was it relevant then? Isn’t the Justice Department saying it would help in checking for violations to the voters rights act?? That might be helpful, no?

There has never been a citizenship question asked to every person filling out a census.
I explained why questions about plumbing and kitchens are relevant. The main purpose is to count the entire population, but the ACS is also used to allocate funds and other resources, as well as draw congressional districts.

This is both wrong and purposely misleading. It was included either on every questionnaire or on long form questionnaires until 2000. The census bureau has traditionally asked whatever the hell it wants.

Yes, it was on the core census form until 1950 I believe. Almost 100 million people received the long form census in 2010 where the question was asked. This isn't new ground being broken. It's just that both parties now see the politics in it.

Yup. 1950.

[HokieFanDC]

Questions about plumbing and kitchens are asked to gauge the quality and living conditions of the country's population. Having indoor plumbing and the ability to prepare food is a pretty standard basic living condition. And there are federal and local grants/funds that are disbursed based on housing quality and substandard conditions. That is why the questions are relevant.

Why is a citizenship question relevant?

You’re saying the census is just to count the entire population......so, why is the plumbing and kitchen question relevant?.......citizenship was relevant on the form through the ‘50’s. Why was it relevant then? Isn’t the Justice Department saying it would help in checking for violations to the voters rights act?? That might be helpful, no?

There has never been a citizenship question asked to every person filling out a census.
I explained why questions about plumbing and kitchens are relevant. The main purpose is to count the entire population, but the ACS is also used to allocate funds and other resources, as well as draw congressional districts.

This is both wrong and purposely misleading. It was included either on every questionnaire or on long form questionnaires until 2000. The census bureau has traditionally asked whatever the hell it wants.

Yes, it was on the core census form until 1950 I believe. Almost 100 million people received the long form census in 2010 where the question was asked. This isn't new ground being broken. It's just that both parties now see the politics in it.

Here’s the history of the census questionnaires. The long form questionnaire where the citizenship question has been asked regularly, generally goes out to less than 20% of the households. There was no long form census in 2010. Not sure what you’re referring to.

https://www.npr.org/2019/04/23/63056291 ... -questions

The question is really whether we should be asking that question. I think the answer is yes, but not for political reasons, but because there are good reasons to count citizens, especially with respect to voting. For funding, I think counting total people is more relevant. Regardless of whether someone is here legally or illegally, we don’t want people of any sort living in horrible conditions.

The citizenship question that was requested would probably have been OK’d if Ross’s motivation wasn’t purely political, and he hadn’t just made up some alternative reason after the fact.

[HokieFanDC]

Take your pick. Liar, or clueless. Both are entirely possible.

Can I pick both?

No, that’s rude! Personal foul, OBXGuy.

[USN_Hokie]

Questions about plumbing and kitchens are asked to gauge the quality and living conditions of the country's population. Having indoor plumbing and the ability to prepare food is a pretty standard basic living condition. And there are federal and local grants/funds that are disbursed based on housing quality and substandard conditions. That is why the questions are relevant.

Why is a citizenship question relevant?

You’re saying the census is just to count the entire population......so, why is the plumbing and kitchen question relevant?.......citizenship was relevant on the form through the ‘50’s. Why was it relevant then? Isn’t the Justice Department saying it would help in checking for violations to the voters rights act?? That might be helpful, no?

There has never been a citizenship question asked to every person filling out a census.
I explained why questions about plumbing and kitchens are relevant. The main purpose is to count the entire population, but the ACS is also used to allocate funds and other resources, as well as draw congressional districts.

This is both wrong and purposely misleading. It was included either on every questionnaire or on long form questionnaires until 2000. The census bureau has traditionally asked whatever the hell it wants.

Yes, it was on the core census form until 1950 I believe. Almost 100 million people received the long form census in 2010 where the question was asked. This isn't new ground being broken. It's just that both parties now see the politics in it.

Here’s the history of the census questionnaires. The long form questionnaire where the citizenship question has been asked regularly, generally goes out to less than 20% of the households. There was no long form census in 2010. Not sure what you’re referring to.

https://www.npr.org/2019/04/23/63056291 ... -questions

The question is really whether we should be asking that question. I think the answer is yes, but not for political reasons, but because there are good reasons to count citizens, especially with respect to voting. For funding, I think counting total people is more relevant. Regardless of whether someone is here legally or illegally, we don’t want people of any sort living in horrible conditions.

The citizenship question that was requested would probably have been OK’d if Ross’s motivation wasn’t purely political, and he hadn’t just made up some alternative reason after the fact.

Ahh....there it is. The famous HFDC double-back-to-the-right-answer-and-pretend-thats-what-you-were-arguing-all-along.

BTW, I'm pretty sure they meant 2000, not 2010...the last census before Obummer.

[HooFighter]

Regardless of whether someone is here legally or illegally, we don’t want people of any sort living in horrible conditions.

I'm pretty sure most of the christians here would disagree with you on that.

Cruelty is a feature, not a bug.

[PolyTech]

Why is a citizenship question relevant?

I really hope this is a bit.

[PolyTech]

The enumeration clause specifically says numbers, not citizens. Citizenship is never mentioned. So yes, it's addressed, in the form of exclusion as a purpose of the count.

So, if 12 million illegals all lived in New Mexico, your take is that New Mexico's # of reps should be adjusted upwards to reflect the population of people who aren't citizens, so to be represented in the US House?

Uh...no.

That's quite a headstand.
You're saying they addressed it, by not mentioning it? The purposeful omission is a way of addressing it? I disagry (no malice). By mentioning untaxed Indians, who would be understood to be tribally sovereign, the framers by my way of thinking directly addressed it. Mexicans living here illegally, non-US-citizens subject to Mexican laws, are almost identical to the untaxed Indian.

The main purpose of the census is to make sure US House representatives are spread properly. I've never read a letter of explanation from any founder/framer saying that non-citizens should be represented in the House.

I think you’re wasting your time trying to argue with someone who doesn’t want a serious discussion. Anyone who argues (and believes it’s definitive) that the census is totally fine asking for the number of terlets you have in your house but can’t ask if someone is a citizen is either playing a game or seriously intellectually deficient.

[HokieFanDC]

Why is a citizenship question relevant?

I really hope this is a bit.

More of a UWS experiment. It’s simple. Multiple people post, “The citizenship is relevant!”.
I ask why they think that. You know, because it’s interesting to hear people’s opinions. It’s also fairly common for ppl to make proclamations and not be able to explain the basis for their proclamation.”Derrrrr...because” is often an accepted argument on UWS. It’s fascinating.
And in this particular case, “Derrrr....because” was the best argument Ross came up with.

[UpstateSCHokie]

Why is a citizenship question relevant?

I really hope this is a bit.

More of a UWS experiment. It’s simple. Multiple people post, “The citizenship is relevant!”.
I ask why they think that. You know, because it’s interesting to hear people’s opinions. It’s also fairly common for ppl to make proclamations and not be able to explain the basis for their proclamation.”Derrrrr...because” is often an accepted argument on UWS. It’s fascinating.
And in this particular case, “Derrrr....because” was the best argument Ross came up with.

You don't think it would be helpful to know how many people living here are legal citizens? I mean wouldn't it be nice to have data like this bounce off of when you see how many people are registered to vote in a given city or state? Do you not think that citizenship is valuable? Why do we need to know if someone is male or female? Why do we need to know if someone is black, white, Hispanic, etc? Why do we need to know when people are born? Do you think other countries try to track this for a reason? Its called demographics, and knowing the stats on citizenship is just as valuable and informative (if not more so) as all the other stuff they ask you on the Census form.

[USN_Hokie]

Why is a citizenship question relevant?

I really hope this is a bit.

Don't worry, he's now Googled the right answer, supports it, and admits it was included in every census until Obama came in office instead of "never been on there" while pretending he had that position all along.

[PolyTech]

Why is a citizenship question relevant?

I really hope this is a bit.

Don't worry, he's now Googled the right answer, supports it, and admits it was included in every census until Obama came in office instead of "never been on there" while pretending he had that position all along.

I think this is an actual lefty position. How anyone would believe it was legitimate is truly mystifying.