Ahhhhhh.....the joys of socialized medicine....

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Ahhhhhh.....the joys of socialized medicine....

Post by HokieHam »

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... pport.html

Alfie Evans' parents launch new legal bid to save his life and let him fly to Italy as toddler continues to breathe unaided HOURS after his father said life support was withdrawn
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Re: Ahhhhhh.....the joys of socialized medicine....

Post by cwtcr hokie »

HokieHam wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... pport.html

Alfie Evans' parents launch new legal bid to save his life and let him fly to Italy as toddler continues to breathe unaided HOURS after his father said life support was withdrawn
I do understand the parents issue but we can keep lots of people "alive" old and young for a very long time, it does not mean we should. The kid has a bad brain issue and it is terminal, so keep him alive for what?
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Re: Ahhhhhh.....the joys of socialized medicine....

Post by Vienna_Hokie »

cwtcr hokie wrote:
HokieHam wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... pport.html

Alfie Evans' parents launch new legal bid to save his life and let him fly to Italy as toddler continues to breathe unaided HOURS after his father said life support was withdrawn
I do understand the parents issue but we can keep lots of people "alive" old and young for a very long time, it does not mean we should. The kid has a bad brain issue and it is terminal, so keep him alive for what?
Why is it your decision or the government's decision on "for what"? The refusal to pay for the treatment is one thing, in the end there are finite resources and there must be sometimes hard decisions on how those resources are spent. But the idea that a government agency is refusing to allow the parents to find and utilize their own resources in what very well may be a futile attempt of "for what" is absurd.
Looks like the only thing 1984 got wrong was the date.
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Re: Ahhhhhh.....the joys of socialized medicine....

Post by cwtcr hokie »

Vienna_Hokie wrote:
cwtcr hokie wrote:
HokieHam wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... pport.html

Alfie Evans' parents launch new legal bid to save his life and let him fly to Italy as toddler continues to breathe unaided HOURS after his father said life support was withdrawn
I do understand the parents issue but we can keep lots of people "alive" old and young for a very long time, it does not mean we should. The kid has a bad brain issue and it is terminal, so keep him alive for what?
Why is it your decision or the government's decision on "for what"? The refusal to pay for the treatment is one thing, in the end there are finite resources and there must be sometimes hard decisions on how those resources are spent. But the idea that a government agency is refusing to allow the parents to find and utilize their own resources in what very well may be a futile attempt of "for what" is absurd.
I agree on their own dime, but are the medical resources that are in reality not going to change the outcome for the kid better used for someone that is not terminal or already not a vegetable? Yes these are sucky life decisions, I agree. The Italy thing is not saving his life per the medical people, extending it some maybe but you need a brain to function, his is already in a very bad state it appears.
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Re: Ahhhhhh.....the joys of socialized medicine....

Post by WestEndHokie39 »

cwtcr hokie wrote:
Vienna_Hokie wrote:
cwtcr hokie wrote:
HokieHam wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... pport.html

Alfie Evans' parents launch new legal bid to save his life and let him fly to Italy as toddler continues to breathe unaided HOURS after his father said life support was withdrawn
I do understand the parents issue but we can keep lots of people "alive" old and young for a very long time, it does not mean we should. The kid has a bad brain issue and it is terminal, so keep him alive for what?
Why is it your decision or the government's decision on "for what"? The refusal to pay for the treatment is one thing, in the end there are finite resources and there must be sometimes hard decisions on how those resources are spent. But the idea that a government agency is refusing to allow the parents to find and utilize their own resources in what very well may be a futile attempt of "for what" is absurd.
I agree on their own dime, but are the medical resources that are in reality not going to change the outcome for the kid better used for someone that is not terminal or already not a vegetable? Yes these are sucky life decisions, I agree. The Italy thing is not saving his life per the medical people, extending it some maybe but you need a brain to function, his is already in a very bad state it appears.
Again- not your decision or the government's if the parents are willing to try and pay for it.
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Re: Ahhhhhh.....the joys of socialized medicine....

Post by cwtcr hokie »

WestEndHokie39 wrote:
cwtcr hokie wrote:
Vienna_Hokie wrote:
cwtcr hokie wrote:
HokieHam wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... pport.html

Alfie Evans' parents launch new legal bid to save his life and let him fly to Italy as toddler continues to breathe unaided HOURS after his father said life support was withdrawn
I do understand the parents issue but we can keep lots of people "alive" old and young for a very long time, it does not mean we should. The kid has a bad brain issue and it is terminal, so keep him alive for what?
Why is it your decision or the government's decision on "for what"? The refusal to pay for the treatment is one thing, in the end there are finite resources and there must be sometimes hard decisions on how those resources are spent. But the idea that a government agency is refusing to allow the parents to find and utilize their own resources in what very well may be a futile attempt of "for what" is absurd.
I agree on their own dime, but are the medical resources that are in reality not going to change the outcome for the kid better used for someone that is not terminal or already not a vegetable? Yes these are sucky life decisions, I agree. The Italy thing is not saving his life per the medical people, extending it some maybe but you need a brain to function, his is already in a very bad state it appears.
Again- not your decision or the government's if the parents are willing to try and pay for it.
I am very glad its not my decision, just debating the issues in that decision over the pond. In my own life my life decisions have only involved dogs and horses (the cats made the decision for themselves it seems) and I hope I never have to make any decision on myself, my wife or my relatives.
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Re: Ahhhhhh.....the joys of socialized medicine....

Post by Vienna_Hokie »

cwtcr hokie wrote:
Vienna_Hokie wrote:
cwtcr hokie wrote:
HokieHam wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... pport.html

Alfie Evans' parents launch new legal bid to save his life and let him fly to Italy as toddler continues to breathe unaided HOURS after his father said life support was withdrawn
I do understand the parents issue but we can keep lots of people "alive" old and young for a very long time, it does not mean we should. The kid has a bad brain issue and it is terminal, so keep him alive for what?
Why is it your decision or the government's decision on "for what"? The refusal to pay for the treatment is one thing, in the end there are finite resources and there must be sometimes hard decisions on how those resources are spent. But the idea that a government agency is refusing to allow the parents to find and utilize their own resources in what very well may be a futile attempt of "for what" is absurd.
I agree on their own dime, but are the medical resources that are in reality not going to change the outcome for the kid better used for someone that is not terminal or already not a vegetable? Yes these are sucky life decisions, I agree. The Italy thing is not saving his life per the medical people, extending it some maybe but you need a brain to function, his is already in a very bad state it appears.
If someone is willing to do it and someone is willing to pay for it, why should anyone else get a say in it? Of course history shows there are no slippery slopes when people stick their noses into things like this :lol: but couldn't the same justification be used to refuse to allow someone to get treatment for cancer..I mean that's an awful lot of money to spend with a questionable outcome.

To the original point, why is the government sticking its nose in and telling people what they can and can't do with their own resources that are completely unrelated to that government? Has the feel of bureaucrats flexing their power because they can.
Looks like the only thing 1984 got wrong was the date.
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Re: Ahhhhhh.....the joys of socialized medicine....

Post by cwtcr hokie »

Vienna_Hokie wrote:
cwtcr hokie wrote:
Vienna_Hokie wrote:
cwtcr hokie wrote:
HokieHam wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... pport.html

Alfie Evans' parents launch new legal bid to save his life and let him fly to Italy as toddler continues to breathe unaided HOURS after his father said life support was withdrawn
I do understand the parents issue but we can keep lots of people "alive" old and young for a very long time, it does not mean we should. The kid has a bad brain issue and it is terminal, so keep him alive for what?
Why is it your decision or the government's decision on "for what"? The refusal to pay for the treatment is one thing, in the end there are finite resources and there must be sometimes hard decisions on how those resources are spent. But the idea that a government agency is refusing to allow the parents to find and utilize their own resources in what very well may be a futile attempt of "for what" is absurd.
I agree on their own dime, but are the medical resources that are in reality not going to change the outcome for the kid better used for someone that is not terminal or already not a vegetable? Yes these are sucky life decisions, I agree. The Italy thing is not saving his life per the medical people, extending it some maybe but you need a brain to function, his is already in a very bad state it appears.
If someone is willing to do it and someone is willing to pay for it, why should anyone else get a say in it? Of course history shows there are no slippery slopes when people stick their noses into things like this :lol: but couldn't the same justification be used to refuse to allow someone to get treatment for cancer..I mean that's an awful lot of money to spend with a questionable outcome.

To the original point, why is the government sticking its nose in and telling people what they can and can't do with their own resources that are completely unrelated to that government? Has the feel of bureaucrats flexing their power because they can.
Its the way the UK works, trade off to having free health care would be my guess. In your comparison tho use apples to apples, per the article nothing will save the life of the boy, they may extend it some as a vegetable but he it appears is not going to have a miracle and emerge 100% healthy. Cancer can be cured, it is done every day. I save my relatives the trouble and have a living will that says if I am terminal and in a veg state let me go!
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Re: Ahhhhhh.....the joys of socialized medicine....

Post by HokieHam »

Just ruled he cannot go to Rome. Judge deciding your fate and your healthcare. By God, I thought it was a right!............the left are despicable.
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Re: Ahhhhhh.....the joys of socialized medicine....

Post by HokieJoe »

HokieHam wrote:Just ruled he cannot go to Rome. Judge deciding your fate and your healthcare. By God, I thought it was a right!............the left are despicable.

Yup.
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Re: Ahhhhhh.....the joys of socialized medicine....

Post by 133743Hokie »

cwtcr hokie wrote:
HokieHam wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... pport.html

Alfie Evans' parents launch new legal bid to save his life and let him fly to Italy as toddler continues to breathe unaided HOURS after his father said life support was withdrawn
I do understand the parents issue but we can keep lots of people "alive" old and young for a very long time, it does not mean we should. The kid has a bad brain issue and it is terminal, so keep him alive for what?
That isn't your call, or societies in general. Solely for his parents to decide in consultation with his doctor.
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Re: Ahhhhhh.....the joys of socialized medicine....

Post by USN_Hokie »

HokieHam wrote:Just ruled he cannot go to Rome. Judge deciding your fate and your healthcare. By God, I thought it was a right!............the left are despicable.
Does anyone think the outcome would be the same if this was Prince William's child?
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Re: Ahhhhhh.....the joys of socialized medicine....

Post by cwtcr hokie »

133743Hokie wrote:
cwtcr hokie wrote:
HokieHam wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... pport.html

Alfie Evans' parents launch new legal bid to save his life and let him fly to Italy as toddler continues to breathe unaided HOURS after his father said life support was withdrawn
I do understand the parents issue but we can keep lots of people "alive" old and young for a very long time, it does not mean we should. The kid has a bad brain issue and it is terminal, so keep him alive for what?
That isn't your call, or societies in general. Solely for his parents to decide in consultation with his doctor.
As i said before, I did not make the call and really really really glad I was not involved in the "call". It was a debate about the issues in health care and how the UK is different than the USA
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Re: Ahhhhhh.....the joys of socialized medicine....

Post by cwtcr hokie »

USN_Hokie wrote:
HokieHam wrote:Just ruled he cannot go to Rome. Judge deciding your fate and your healthcare. By God, I thought it was a right!............the left are despicable.
Does anyone think the outcome would be the same if this was Prince William's child?
The outcome? It appears no matter what they do the kid will not live a long life, so no the outcome is the same. This is not about curing the kid, his brain is already damaged badly, humans need a brain. Yes, I am taking the emotion out of it. Current medicine cannot cure the kid.
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Re: Ahhhhhh.....the joys of socialized medicine....

Post by USN_Hokie »

cwtcr hokie wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:
HokieHam wrote:Just ruled he cannot go to Rome. Judge deciding your fate and your healthcare. By God, I thought it was a right!............the left are despicable.
Does anyone think the outcome would be the same if this was Prince William's child?
The outcome? It appears no matter what they do the kid will not live a long life, so no the outcome is the same. This is not about curing the kid, his brain is already damaged badly, humans need a brain. Yes, I am taking the emotion out of it. Current medicine cannot cure the kid.
"On a long enough time line, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero."

What if the UK government decides that farmers who can't chase horses without their missing knee brace from the gym get put down next?

We're talking about humans, not livestock. This this is an offense against free will - and there's no way this judge would have ruled the same if this was a royal, which was my point.
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Re: Ahhhhhh.....the joys of socialized medicine....

Post by cwtcr hokie »

WestEndHokie39 wrote:
cwtcr hokie wrote:
Vienna_Hokie wrote:
cwtcr hokie wrote:
HokieHam wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... pport.html

Alfie Evans' parents launch new legal bid to save his life and let him fly to Italy as toddler continues to breathe unaided HOURS after his father said life support was withdrawn
I do understand the parents issue but we can keep lots of people "alive" old and young for a very long time, it does not mean we should. The kid has a bad brain issue and it is terminal, so keep him alive for what?
Why is it your decision or the government's decision on "for what"? The refusal to pay for the treatment is one thing, in the end there are finite resources and there must be sometimes hard decisions on how those resources are spent. But the idea that a government agency is refusing to allow the parents to find and utilize their own resources in what very well may be a futile attempt of "for what" is absurd.
I agree on their own dime, but are the medical resources that are in reality not going to change the outcome for the kid better used for someone that is not terminal or already not a vegetable? Yes these are sucky life decisions, I agree. The Italy thing is not saving his life per the medical people, extending it some maybe but you need a brain to function, his is already in a very bad state it appears.
Again- not your decision or the government's if the parents are willing to try and pay for it.
Your personal opinion, do you think it is right to keep someone alive that does not have brain function? It is possible for a long time, is it right?
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Re: Ahhhhhh.....the joys of socialized medicine....

Post by USN_Hokie »

cwtcr hokie wrote: Your personal opinion, do you think it is right to keep someone alive that does not have brain function? It is possible for a long time, is it right?
Your personal opinion, do you think it is right to keep someone alive that does not have knee function? It is possible for a long time, is it right?

We do it with livestock, so it seems like a legitimate question since you want to treat people like livestock.
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Re: Ahhhhhh.....the joys of socialized medicine....

Post by Major Kong »

The parents appealed the decision...the hearing has been done and a decision is pending.
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Re: Ahhhhhh.....the joys of socialized medicine....

Post by ip_law-hokie »

USN_Hokie wrote:
cwtcr hokie wrote: Your personal opinion, do you think it is right to keep someone alive that does not have brain function? It is possible for a long time, is it right?
Your personal opinion, do you think it is right to keep someone alive that does not have knee function? It is possible for a long time, is it right?

We do it with livestock, so it seems like a legitimate question since you want to treat people like livestock.
Slippery slope!


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Re: Ahhhhhh.....the joys of socialized medicine....

Post by 133743Hokie »

cwtcr hokie wrote:
133743Hokie wrote:
cwtcr hokie wrote:
HokieHam wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... pport.html

Alfie Evans' parents launch new legal bid to save his life and let him fly to Italy as toddler continues to breathe unaided HOURS after his father said life support was withdrawn
I do understand the parents issue but we can keep lots of people "alive" old and young for a very long time, it does not mean we should. The kid has a bad brain issue and it is terminal, so keep him alive for what?
That isn't your call, or societies in general. Solely for his parents to decide in consultation with his doctor.
As i said before, I did not make the call and really really really glad I was not involved in the "call". It was a debate about the issues in health care and how the UK is different than the USA
Yep. UK is fully nationalized so they have death panels.
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Re: Ahhhhhh.....the joys of socialized medicine....

Post by cwtcr hokie »

USN_Hokie wrote:
cwtcr hokie wrote: Your personal opinion, do you think it is right to keep someone alive that does not have brain function? It is possible for a long time, is it right?
Your personal opinion, do you think it is right to keep someone alive that does not have knee function? It is possible for a long time, is it right?

We do it with livestock, so it seems like a legitimate question since you want to treat people like livestock.
huh? what? I can have them cut off my leg at the knee and function just fine, if my brain is not functioning then I cannot do anything, the article says the kid is in a partial vegetative state and current medicine cannot cure his brain issue, so is it right to keep his body alive even tho there is zero shot at a cure? If there was a cure or they could erase the damage already done then this is a whole different conversation.. do you agree?
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Re: Ahhhhhh.....the joys of socialized medicine....

Post by cwtcr hokie »

USN_Hokie wrote:
cwtcr hokie wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:
HokieHam wrote:Just ruled he cannot go to Rome. Judge deciding your fate and your healthcare. By God, I thought it was a right!............the left are despicable.
Does anyone think the outcome would be the same if this was Prince William's child?
The outcome? It appears no matter what they do the kid will not live a long life, so no the outcome is the same. This is not about curing the kid, his brain is already damaged badly, humans need a brain. Yes, I am taking the emotion out of it. Current medicine cannot cure the kid.
"On a long enough time line, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero."

What if the UK government decides that farmers who can't chase horses without their missing knee brace from the gym get put down next?

We're talking about humans, not livestock. This this is an offense against free will - and there's no way this judge would have ruled the same if this was a royal, which was my point.
your point about the royal kid.... well no duh. but use apples to apples comparisons please, using stuff that makes no sense does not add to the debate. I agree the parents should have the ability to do whatever with their kid on their own dime, my question is it right for them to keep the body alive, it seems a bit selfish to me, there is no cure per the article. And yes every case has all its own variables so no, one answer does not fit all.
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Re: Ahhhhhh.....the joys of socialized medicine....

Post by USN_Hokie »

ip_law-hokie wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:
cwtcr hokie wrote: Your personal opinion, do you think it is right to keep someone alive that does not have brain function? It is possible for a long time, is it right?
Your personal opinion, do you think it is right to keep someone alive that does not have knee function? It is possible for a long time, is it right?

We do it with livestock, so it seems like a legitimate question since you want to treat people like livestock.
Slippery slope!


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There's no slipping required. They're already denying surgeries for people in the UK based on their BMI (ETA: and smoking I believe).
Last edited by USN_Hokie on Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ahhhhhh.....the joys of socialized medicine....

Post by ip_law-hokie »

USN_Hokie wrote:
ip_law-hokie wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:
cwtcr hokie wrote: Your personal opinion, do you think it is right to keep someone alive that does not have brain function? It is possible for a long time, is it right?
Your personal opinion, do you think it is right to keep someone alive that does not have knee function? It is possible for a long time, is it right?

We do it with livestock, so it seems like a legitimate question since you want to treat people like livestock.
Slippery slope!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
There's no slipping required. They're already denying surgeries for people in the UK based on their BMI.
Good if true.


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With their Cap’n and Chief Intelligence Officer having deserted them, River, Ham and Joe valiantly continue their whataboutismistic last stand of the DJT apology tour.
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Re: Ahhhhhh.....the joys of socialized medicine....

Post by USN_Hokie »

ip_law-hokie wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:
ip_law-hokie wrote:
USN_Hokie wrote:
cwtcr hokie wrote: Your personal opinion, do you think it is right to keep someone alive that does not have brain function? It is possible for a long time, is it right?
Your personal opinion, do you think it is right to keep someone alive that does not have knee function? It is possible for a long time, is it right?

We do it with livestock, so it seems like a legitimate question since you want to treat people like livestock.
Slippery slope!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
There's no slipping required. They're already denying surgeries for people in the UK based on their BMI.
Good if true.


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We already know you're a statist.
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