What sacrifices are you willing to make?

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VoiceOfReason
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What sacrifices are you willing to make?

Post by VoiceOfReason »

NOTE: Sorry for the repost. I originally posted this in the "I WANT a default..." thread, but it got buried in some discussions about a Marxist leader and a malfunctioning machine :mrgreen:

=====

OK, let me make a few key assumptions here:

1) If you are saying that you WANT a fight over the debt ceiling, you must also be willing to live through the possibility that the US will default on it's debt.

Why? Well... no offense... but the general approach by conservatives to "negotiating" is to get concessions from the Ds without giving up anything important. If your goal is to extract meaningful spending cuts from the Ds and offer no tax increases or cuts to programs you support (like the military)... then you are not asking for a reasonable discussion... you are asking to go ALL IN to get your way.

2) You must also be willing for the Rs to be held responsible for the default. No matter what the R Talking Points will be... if you say you want to FIGHT and you want to WIN and not offer anything of value to the Ds... then you must take responsibility for the consequences if the Ds don't immediately roll into the fetal position and give you everything you want. And please don't respond with some version of thinking where you thing the Rs can engineer this fight and then try and lay all the blame on the Ds. Other than conservatives, nobody believed that with the shutdown and nobody will believe it this time either.

QUESTION: So, if this is what you guys mean - FIGHT, risk default, R's show leadership and accountability and hold firm regardless of the harm done... then tell me, what skin do you have in the game? It is somewhat cowardly to exhort people to stand and fight when others will suffer the consequences and you will be fine. What credibility do you guys have?

MY ANSWER: I have plenty of retirement investments in the market and I would like to retire on my own schedule. I have no desire for the market to tank over a fight that can easily be conducted without threatening default. I also have plenty of friends and family who would be significantly harmed financially by another recession. So, while I do agree with some of your goals (no more budget deficits, reduce the debt, reduce spending in areas where people are not disproportionately harmed)... I take issue with using tactics that harm people.

So speak up conservatives! Are you risking your own economic well being? Or are you the guy in the back of the crowd encouraging your friend not to back down from the bully that's about to kick his ass? :shock:
oaktonhokie
Posts: 11324
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:48 pm

Re: What sacrifices are you willing to make?

Post by oaktonhokie »

We are heading for a cliff. We have to slam on the brakes. That may cause some whiplash or bruises.

BUT WE'RE HEADED FOR A CLIFF!

Obama care is ruinous. Whatever price we have to pay, pay it. Stop obamacare.
The debt is ruinous. And the problem is spending, not taxes.

And um, what price are you and the libs willing to pay? What compromise are you and the libs willing to make? Oh sorry, only conservatives have to make concessions.

I've made the analogy before:

Obama wants to hit us in the head with a baseball bat, ten times.
We say no.

Obama offers to reduce the number to seven times.
We say no.

Obama, ever willing to compromise, offers to hit us only five times, three on the head and two in the stomach.
We say no.

Obama and the media are upset that are obstructing his policies. We are not willing to compromise. We have offered no plan of our own. We are the party of NO.

Our plan is NO.

We do not have to help you hurt us. We do not have to help you ruin our hcare system, our economy and our way of life.

We will fight AGAINST you, we will not work with you.

Now clearly, many of the Rs will work across the aisle to do the work of the American people and negotiate a compromise that has Obama only hit us twice in the head and once in the stomach with a baseball bat. Hurray for john McCain and Lindsey ghraham. Working to slow the bus down, so it takes a couple extra minutes before we go over the cliff.

We should fight this. Fight obamacare. Fight the debt.

Keep the government closed. Don't raise the debt ceiling.

The chips will fall where they may.

Save the country. It will hurt. I'm ok with that.


VoiceOfReason wrote:NOTE: Sorry for the repost. I originally posted this in the "I WANT a default..." thread, but it got buried in some discussions about a Marxist leader and a malfunctioning machine :mrgreen:

=====

OK, let me make a few key assumptions here:

1) If you are saying that you WANT a fight over the debt ceiling, you must also be willing to live through the possibility that the US will default on it's debt.

Why? Well... no offense... but the general approach by conservatives to "negotiating" is to get concessions from the Ds without giving up anything important. If your goal is to extract meaningful spending cuts from the Ds and offer no tax increases or cuts to programs you support (like the military)... then you are not asking for a reasonable discussion... you are asking to go ALL IN to get your way.

2) You must also be willing for the Rs to be held responsible for the default. No matter what the R Talking Points will be... if you say you want to FIGHT and you want to WIN and not offer anything of value to the Ds... then you must take responsibility for the consequences if the Ds don't immediately roll into the fetal position and give you everything you want. And please don't respond with some version of thinking where you thing the Rs can engineer this fight and then try and lay all the blame on the Ds. Other than conservatives, nobody believed that with the shutdown and nobody will believe it this time either.

QUESTION: So, if this is what you guys mean - FIGHT, risk default, R's show leadership and accountability and hold firm regardless of the harm done... then tell me, what skin do you have in the game? It is somewhat cowardly to exhort people to stand and fight when others will suffer the consequences and you will be fine. What credibility do you guys have?

MY ANSWER: I have plenty of retirement investments in the market and I would like to retire on my own schedule. I have no desire for the market to tank over a fight that can easily be conducted without threatening default. I also have plenty of friends and family who would be significantly harmed financially by another recession. So, while I do agree with some of your goals (no more budget deficits, reduce the debt, reduce spending in areas where people are not disproportionately harmed)... I take issue with using tactics that harm people.

So speak up conservatives! Are you risking your own economic well being? Or are you the guy in the back of the crowd encouraging your friend not to back down from the bully that's about to kick his ass? :shock:
If you bend over backwards long enough,
eventually you'll fall down.
Mcl3 Hokie
Posts: 1477
Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2013 2:50 pm

What I read in your post...

Post by Mcl3 Hokie »

Whatever you do, don't affect my lifestyle. So let's just continue to spend our way into oblivion. I guess you don't care to leave the US in a better position than when you were born.

You're on record as liking the permanent extension of the Bush tax cuts. Why don't you want to help support the spending you benefit from. I guess you see that as someone else's responsibility. Sounds like a tried and true Democrat position to me. So for you, it's all about now. Voice of Reason...I think not.


VoiceOfReason wrote:NOTE: Sorry for the repost. I originally posted this in the "I WANT a default..." thread, but it got buried in some discussions about a Marxist leader and a malfunctioning machine :mrgreen:

=====

OK, let me make a few key assumptions here:

1) If you are saying that you WANT a fight over the debt ceiling, you must also be willing to live through the possibility that the US will default on it's debt.

Why? Well... no offense... but the general approach by conservatives to "negotiating" is to get concessions from the Ds without giving up anything important. If your goal is to extract meaningful spending cuts from the Ds and offer no tax increases or cuts to programs you support (like the military)... then you are not asking for a reasonable discussion... you are asking to go ALL IN to get your way.

2) You must also be willing for the Rs to be held responsible for the default. No matter what the R Talking Points will be... if you say you want to FIGHT and you want to WIN and not offer anything of value to the Ds... then you must take responsibility for the consequences if the Ds don't immediately roll into the fetal position and give you everything you want. And please don't respond with some version of thinking where you thing the Rs can engineer this fight and then try and lay all the blame on the Ds. Other than conservatives, nobody believed that with the shutdown and nobody will believe it this time either.

QUESTION: So, if this is what you guys mean - FIGHT, risk default, R's show leadership and accountability and hold firm regardless of the harm done... then tell me, what skin do you have in the game? It is somewhat cowardly to exhort people to stand and fight when others will suffer the consequences and you will be fine. What credibility do you guys have?

MY ANSWER: I have plenty of retirement investments in the market and I would like to retire on my own schedule. I have no desire for the market to tank over a fight that can easily be conducted without threatening default. I also have plenty of friends and family who would be significantly harmed financially by another recession. So, while I do agree with some of your goals (no more budget deficits, reduce the debt, reduce spending in areas where people are not disproportionately harmed)... I take issue with using tactics that harm people.

So speak up conservatives! Are you risking your own economic well being? Or are you the guy in the back of the crowd encouraging your friend not to back down from the bully that's about to kick his ass? :shock:
oaktonhokie
Posts: 11324
Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:48 pm

Re: What sacrifices are you willing to make?

Post by oaktonhokie »

Um, are you willing to do anything to avoid the hardship?

Are you willing to compromise, do away with obamacare to open the government. Or cut spending to avoid default?

Or are you only willing to stand on the sideline and hope your team (USA) loses so you can go home and count your money?

This is the second time I ask, what sacrifices are you and the libs willing to make? Sounds like the typical lib to me, cause the problem, complain about the problem, feel compassion for the people affected by the problem, blame someone else for the problem.

And demand that they do everything you want. To make the problem worse.

Overwhelm the system.

So vor, what are you willing to sacrifice?

VoiceOfReason wrote:NOTE: Sorry for the repost. I originally posted this in the "I WANT a default..." thread, but it got buried in some discussions about a Marxist leader and a malfunctioning machine :mrgreen:

=====

OK, let me make a few key assumptions here:

1) If you are saying that you WANT a fight over the debt ceiling, you must also be willing to live through the possibility that the US will default on it's debt.

Why? Well... no offense... but the general approach by conservatives to "negotiating" is to get concessions from the Ds without giving up anything important. If your goal is to extract meaningful spending cuts from the Ds and offer no tax increases or cuts to programs you support (like the military)... then you are not asking for a reasonable discussion... you are asking to go ALL IN to get your way.

2) You must also be willing for the Rs to be held responsible for the default. No matter what the R Talking Points will be... if you say you want to FIGHT and you want to WIN and not offer anything of value to the Ds... then you must take responsibility for the consequences if the Ds don't immediately roll into the fetal position and give you everything you want. And please don't respond with some version of thinking where you thing the Rs can engineer this fight and then try and lay all the blame on the Ds. Other than conservatives, nobody believed that with the shutdown and nobody will believe it this time either.

QUESTION: So, if this is what you guys mean - FIGHT, risk default, R's show leadership and accountability and hold firm regardless of the harm done... then tell me, what skin do you have in the game? It is somewhat cowardly to exhort people to stand and fight when others will suffer the consequences and you will be fine. What credibility do you guys have?

MY ANSWER: I have plenty of retirement investments in the market and I would like to retire on my own schedule. I have no desire for the market to tank over a fight that can easily be conducted without threatening default. I also have plenty of friends and family who would be significantly harmed financially by another recession. So, while I do agree with some of your goals (no more budget deficits, reduce the debt, reduce spending in areas where people are not disproportionately harmed)... I take issue with using tactics that harm people.

So speak up conservatives! Are you risking your own economic well being? Or are you the guy in the back of the crowd encouraging your friend not to back down from the bully that's about to kick his ass? :shock:
If you bend over backwards long enough,
eventually you'll fall down.
VoiceOfReason
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Re: What I read in your post...

Post by VoiceOfReason »

Mcl3 Hokie wrote:Whatever you do, don't affect my lifestyle. So let's just continue to spend our way into oblivion. I guess you don't care to leave the US in a better position than when you were born.

You're on record as liking the permanent extension of the Bush tax cuts. Why don't you want to help support the spending you benefit from. I guess you see that as someone else's responsibility. Sounds like a tried and true Democrat position to me. So for you, it's all about now. Voice of Reason...I think not.
Oakton and MCl3: WADR, if you want to accuse me of holding some position... please actually take some time to see if I actually hold that position. I do not neatly fall into the category of what you think Big Libs believe. (Nor do most Big Libs... but that is beside the point. And, for the record you guys don't fit into the Big Libs stereotypes either.)

1) I see the debt cliff. I want it fixed as bad as you do.

2) I think this generation's (and the last one's) choices of spending more money than they take in is a SHAMEFUL legacy to leave our children. I feel like I feel more strongly about this position than anyone in both parties... so get off your high horses and don't come at me with that weak BS.

3) I will support the first party to make a serious attempt to fix the problem without starting by saying the debt must be paid off by the poor and the middle class. I don't care if that's the donkeys, the elephants or maybe a giraffe. I have NO party loyalty. I have AMERICAN loyalty.

My question here is NOT "Do you agree with runaway spending". I make the assumption that none of you do.

My question is... "Why do you encourage leaders to imperil the country with major short-term damage for what is a longer-term problem." My leg has an infection... it can be fixed without amputation.

In the car/cliff analogy... We all see the debt/deficit cliff. And yes, we do need to slam on the brakes. But the R approach is more like this:

* the Ds are driving towards the debt cliff 1000 yards ahead...
* the Rs in the passenger seat grabs the wheel and points the car towards a default cliff only 100 yards ahead
* the Ds yell "What the hell are you doing? Let go!"
* the Rs say "Sure, but give me your wallet first or we all go over".
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Hokie5150
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Re: What I read in your post...

Post by Hokie5150 »

VoiceOfReason wrote:3) I will support the first party to make a serious attempt to fix the problem without starting by saying the debt must be paid off by the poor and the middle class. I don't care if that's the donkeys, the elephants or maybe a giraffe. I have NO party loyalty. I have AMERICAN loyalty.
Who has ever suggested this? The "rich" in this country pay a disproportionate level of the total burden of funding our government...always have and I've not seen anyone ever suggesting otherwise. I do firmly believe, however, that until the burden is pushed downward such that all are contributing, there will be no political will to tackle the real problem...spending. As long as someone else is paying the bill, increased spending will always be the norm.
VoiceOfReason
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Re: What sacrifices are you willing to make?

Post by VoiceOfReason »

oaktonhokie wrote:Um, are you willing to do anything to avoid the hardship?

Are you willing to compromise, do away with obamacare to open the government. Or cut spending to avoid default?

Or are you only willing to stand on the sideline and hope your team (USA) loses so you can go home and count your money?

This is the second time I ask, what sacrifices are you and the libs willing to make? Sounds like the typical lib to me, cause the problem, complain about the problem, feel compassion for the people affected by the problem, blame someone else for the problem.

And demand that they do everything you want. To make the problem worse.

Overwhelm the system.

So vor, what are you willing to sacrifice?
OK, cool. I get to be the leader! This is what I would do...

1) Call Boehner and say the following:
- I will not repeal or delay the ACA because I believe it is necessary to insure the masses, etc. I know you have issues with it and if you are sincere about making changes to improve the program, I will be happy to work with you on it.
- I want to address the debt just like you do. You have my assurance that the Ds will come to the table with significant spending cuts to Social Security, Medicaid and Defense to offer in negotiations. We have not yet identified enough cuts to fix the entire problem, but we are offering real cuts (which will make some Big Libs scream). We hope you will join us in finding further cuts and tax increases to finally fix this problem and do honor to both of our parties. This can be our finest hour.
- I will not give any concessions while you refuse to fund the government or increase the debt limit. We would prefer an extension that gets us through the next election... but we will sign a shorter extension if you want to use it as a touchpoint to ensure that we actually come to the table with our proposals.

What sacrifices am I willing to make personally? I am willing to accept less in Social Security payments and a later retirement age... provided that savings goes to reducing deficit spending. I am willing to pay higher taxes - within reason - if this increase is accompanied by significant spending cuts AND their is a clear non partisan path to long term solvency - AND - that everyone about a certain party line shares this sacrifice, the middle class should not be singled out.

How many of you are willing to make such sacrifices? Because all I hear from conservatives is that we can cut food stamp (which you don't use) and NPR (which you don't watch) and lower taxes and the debt goes away! Where is your sacrifice?
VoiceOfReason
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Re: What I read in your post...

Post by VoiceOfReason »

Hokie5150 wrote:
VoiceOfReason wrote:3) I will support the first party to make a serious attempt to fix the problem without starting by saying the debt must be paid off by the poor and the middle class. I don't care if that's the donkeys, the elephants or maybe a giraffe. I have NO party loyalty. I have AMERICAN loyalty.
Who has ever suggested this? The "rich" in this country pay a disproportionate level of the total burden of funding our government...always have and I've not seen anyone ever suggesting otherwise. I do firmly believe, however, that until the burden is pushed downward such that all are contributing, there will be no political will to tackle the real problem...spending. As long as someone else is paying the bill, increased spending will always be the norm.
I disagree. The wealthy pay MORE in tax dollars collected and LESS in percentage of income taxed. For sure, they foot the bill more than if we assigned everyone the exact same bill regardless of income... but wouldn't that be communism?

The wealthy also reap the benefits of freedom far more than everyone else. With money, in this country, you can have a pretty awesome life. Without it, you may have freedom on paper... but are you really free?

I would rather not unleash the class warfare debate on this thread... just suffice it to say that as a member of the middle class I will be willing to contribute in the form of higher taxes and fewer services... so long as everyone, including the wealthy, is also asked to contribute. We all got us into this... we all need to help each other out of it.
oaktonhokie
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Re: What I read in your post...

Post by oaktonhokie »

Is that your answer to my twice asked question about what YOU will sacrifice, how YOU will compromise?

I gave you my answer, fight and let the chips fall where they may. Pay whatever the price is.

You said you'll vote for whoever can solve the problem. Wow, a profile in courage right there. And I guess, those who endorse policies that allows you to keep amassing and tabulating your vast wealth.

Third time: What will you sacrifice, what should you and the libs compromise on?

VoiceOfReason wrote:
Mcl3 Hokie wrote:Whatever you do, don't affect my lifestyle. So let's just continue to spend our way into oblivion. I guess you don't care to leave the US in a better position than when you were born.

You're on record as liking the permanent extension of the Bush tax cuts. Why don't you want to help support the spending you benefit from. I guess you see that as someone else's responsibility. Sounds like a tried and true Democrat position to me. So for you, it's all about now. Voice of Reason...I think not.
Oakton and MCl3: WADR, if you want to accuse me of holding some position... please actually take some time to see if I actually hold that position. I do not neatly fall into the category of what you think Big Libs believe. (Nor do most Big Libs... but that is beside the point. And, for the record you guys don't fit into the Big Libs stereotypes either.)

1) I see the debt cliff. I want it fixed as bad as you do.

2) I think this generation's (and the last one's) choices of spending more money than they take in is a SHAMEFUL legacy to leave our children. I feel like I feel more strongly about this position than anyone in both parties... so get off your high horses and don't come at me with that weak BS.

3) I will support the first party to make a serious attempt to fix the problem without starting by saying the debt must be paid off by the poor and the middle class. I don't care if that's the donkeys, the elephants or maybe a giraffe. I have NO party loyalty. I have AMERICAN loyalty.

My question here is NOT "Do you agree with runaway spending". I make the assumption that none of you do.

My question is... "Why do you encourage leaders to imperil the country with major short-term damage for what is a longer-term problem." My leg has an infection... it can be fixed without amputation.

In the car/cliff analogy... We all see the debt/deficit cliff. And yes, we do need to slam on the brakes. But the R approach is more like this:

* the Ds are driving towards the debt cliff 1000 yards ahead...
* the Rs in the passenger seat grabs the wheel and points the car towards a default cliff only 100 yards ahead
* the Ds yell "What the hell are you doing? Let go!"
* the Rs say "Sure, but give me your wallet first or we all go over".
If you bend over backwards long enough,
eventually you'll fall down.
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Hokie5150
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Re: What I read in your post...

Post by Hokie5150 »

VoiceOfReason wrote:
Hokie5150 wrote:
VoiceOfReason wrote:3) I will support the first party to make a serious attempt to fix the problem without starting by saying the debt must be paid off by the poor and the middle class. I don't care if that's the donkeys, the elephants or maybe a giraffe. I have NO party loyalty. I have AMERICAN loyalty.
Who has ever suggested this? The "rich" in this country pay a disproportionate level of the total burden of funding our government...always have and I've not seen anyone ever suggesting otherwise. I do firmly believe, however, that until the burden is pushed downward such that all are contributing, there will be no political will to tackle the real problem...spending. As long as someone else is paying the bill, increased spending will always be the norm.
I disagree. The wealthy pay MORE in tax dollars collected and LESS in percentage of income taxed. For sure, they foot the bill more than if we assigned everyone the exact same bill regardless of income... but wouldn't that be communism?

The wealthy also reap the benefits of freedom far more than everyone else. With money, in this country, you can have a pretty awesome life. Without it, you may have freedom on paper... but are you really free?

I would rather not unleash the class warfare debate on this thread... just suffice it to say that as a member of the middle class I will be willing to contribute in the form of higher taxes and fewer services... so long as everyone, including the wealthy, is also asked to contribute. We all got us into this... we all need to help each other out of it.
1. How would that be communism? 2. The poor benefit far more from every tax dollar spent.
oaktonhokie
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Re: What sacrifices are you willing to make?

Post by oaktonhokie »

Ooops byst saw this response. Apologies for my post asking a third time...
VoiceOfReason wrote:
oaktonhokie wrote:Um, are you willing to do anything to avoid the hardship?

Are you willing to compromise, do away with obamacare to open the government. Or cut spending to avoid default?

Or are you only willing to stand on the sideline and hope your team (USA) loses so you can go home and count your money?

This is the second time I ask, what sacrifices are you and the libs willing to make? Sounds like the typical lib to me, cause the problem, complain about the problem, feel compassion for the people affected by the problem, blame someone else for the problem.

And demand that they do everything you want. To make the problem worse.

Overwhelm the system.

So vor, what are you willing to sacrifice?
OK, cool. I get to be the leader! This is what I would do...

1) Call Boehner and say the following:
- I will not repeal or delay the ACA because I believe it is necessary to insure the masses, etc. I know you have issues with it and if you are sincere about making changes to improve the program, I will be happy to work with you on it.
- I want to address the debt just like you do. You have my assurance that the Ds will come to the table with significant spending cuts to Social Security, Medicaid and Defense to offer in negotiations. We have not yet identified enough cuts to fix the entire problem, but we are offering real cuts (which will make some Big Libs scream). We hope you will join us in finding further cuts and tax increases to finally fix this problem and do honor to both of our parties. This can be our finest hour.
- I will not give any concessions while you refuse to fund the government or increase the debt limit. We would prefer an extension that gets us through the next election... but we will sign a shorter extension if you want to use it as a touchpoint to ensure that we actually come to the table with our proposals.

What sacrifices am I willing to make personally? I am willing to accept less in Social Security payments and a later retirement age... provided that savings goes to reducing deficit spending. I am willing to pay higher taxes - within reason - if this increase is accompanied by significant spending cuts AND their is a clear non partisan path to long term solvency - AND - that everyone about a certain party line shares this sacrifice, the middle class should not be singled out.

How many of you are willing to make such sacrifices? Because all I hear from conservatives is that we can cut food stamp (which you don't use) and NPR (which you don't watch) and lower taxes and the debt goes away! Where is your sacrifice?
If you bend over backwards long enough,
eventually you'll fall down.
Florida Hokie
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Re: What sacrifices are you willing to make?

Post by Florida Hokie »

Do you think there is any non-essential Government spending?
VoiceOfReason wrote:NOTE: Sorry for the repost. I originally posted this in the "I WANT a default..." thread, but it got buried in some discussions about a Marxist
leader and a malfunctioning machine :mrgreen:

=====

OK, let me make a few key assumptions here:

1) If you are saying that you WANT a fight over the debt ceiling, you must also be willing to live through the possibility that the US will default on it's debt.

Why? Well... no offense... but the general approach by conservatives to "negotiating" is to get concessions from the Ds without giving up anything important. If your goal is to extract meaningful spending cuts from the Ds and offer no tax increases or cuts to programs you support (like the military)... then you are not asking for a reasonable discussion... you are asking to go ALL IN to get your way.

2) You must also be willing for the Rs to be held responsible for the default. No matter what the R Talking Points will be... if you say you want to FIGHT and you want to WIN and not offer anything of value to the Ds... then you must take responsibility for the consequences if the Ds don't immediately roll into the fetal position and give you everything you want. And please don't respond with some version of thinking where you thing the Rs can engineer this fight and then try and lay all the blame on the Ds. Other than conservatives, nobody believed that with the shutdown and nobody will believe it this time either.

QUESTION: So, if this is what you guys mean - FIGHT, risk default, R's show leadership and accountability and hold firm regardless of the harm done... then tell me, what skin do you have in the game? It is somewhat cowardly to exhort people to stand and fight when others will suffer the consequences and you will be fine. What credibility do you guys have?

MY ANSWER: I have plenty of retirement investments in the market and I would like to retire on my own schedule. I have no desire for the market to tank over a fight that can easily be conducted without threatening default. I also have plenty of friends and family who would be significantly harmed financially by another recession. So, while I do agree with some of your goals (no more budget deficits, reduce the debt, reduce spending in areas where people are not disproportionately harmed)... I take issue with using tactics that harm people.

So speak up conservatives! Are you risking your own economic well being? Or are you the guy in the back of the crowd encouraging your friend not to back down from the bully that's about to kick his ass? :shock:
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Major Kong
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What sacrifices are you willing to make?

Post by Major Kong »

What should I sacrifice?

I don't have to sacrifice anything.

I live on top of a hill with a 360° clear line of fire...an old Cold War Bunker converted into root cellar...I'm well stocked, armed and ready.

I'm ready for any blanked stared mindless zombies Democrats that come my way. ;) :P
I only post using 100% recycled electrons.

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VoiceOfReason
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Re: What sacrifices are you willing to make?

Post by VoiceOfReason »

Florida Hokie wrote:Do you think there is any non-essential Government spending?
I am certain there is. There are plenty of programs I would completely eliminate if I were King. Most of them amount to less than 5% of the budget, so there is more to cut.

Why do you even ask that? Don't fall into the false narrative all non-conservatives want is more programs and more debt, lol.
VoiceOfReason
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Re: What sacrifices are you willing to make?

Post by VoiceOfReason »

Major Kong wrote:What should I sacrifice?

I don't have to sacrifice anything.

I live on top of a hill with a 360° clear line of fire...an old Cold War Bunker converted into root cellar...I'm well stocked, armed and ready.

I'm ready for any blanked stared mindless zombies Democrats that come my way. ;) :P
And this is why you have to desire for username like "Voice of Reason" :mrgreen:
VoiceOfReason
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Re: What I read in your post...

Post by VoiceOfReason »

oaktonhokie wrote:Is that your answer to my twice asked question about what YOU will sacrifice, how YOU will compromise?

I gave you my answer, fight and let the chips fall where they may. Pay whatever the price is.

You said you'll vote for whoever can solve the problem. Wow, a profile in courage right there. And I guess, those who endorse policies that allows you to keep amassing and tabulating your vast wealth.

Third time: What will you sacrifice, what should you and the libs compromise on?
OK, Oakton. I will not disrespect you by counting how many times you have avoided my question... but please elaborate. You don't list any sacrifice you are willing to make. You don't list any concession you are willing to give for a grand bargain. You just say you will "fight"! At what cost to you? Posting messages on a message board? How will this affect you?
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Re: What I read in your post...

Post by oaktonhokie »

I said I'll pay the price whatever that is.

Higher interest rates, ok.
Delay in government services ok.
Stoppage of government services, ok.
Degrading America's credit rating, ok.
Delay in getting social security, ok.
No travel outside US, ok.
No airplane travel due to lack of security, ok.

If I left something out, let me know.

Whatever the price, pay it. The cost is temporary. And the cost we ill be far less than the cost of obamacare and the ruination of our healthcare system.

The debt will ruin our economy. The price may be severe, or not, but only temporary.

I just hope that you will be able to count your money. THAT is a bridge too far.
VoiceOfReason wrote:
oaktonhokie wrote:Is that your answer to my twice asked question about what YOU will sacrifice, how YOU will compromise?
Z
I gave you my answer, fight and let the chips fall where they may. Pay whatever the price is.

You said you'll vote for whoever can solve the problem. Wow, a profile in courage right there. And I guess, those who endorse policies that allows you to keep amassing and tabulating your vast wealth.

Third time: What will you sacrifice, what should you and the libs compromise on?
OK, Oakton. I will not disrespect you by counting how many times you have avoided my question... but please elaborate. You don't list any sacrifice you are willing to make. You don't list any concession you are willing to give for a grand bargain. You just say you will "fight"! At what cost to you? Posting messages on a message board? How will this affect you?
If you bend over backwards long enough,
eventually you'll fall down.
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Re: What sacrifices are you willing to make?

Post by RiverguyVT »

VOR is a huge net "add" for this board.
So I put (the dead dog) on her doorstep!
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Re: What I read in your post...

Post by VoiceOfReason »

oaktonhokie wrote:I said I'll pay the price whatever that is.

Higher interest rates, ok.
Delay in government services ok.
Stoppage of government services, ok.
Degrading America's credit rating, ok.
Delay in getting social security, ok.
No travel outside US, ok.
No airplane travel due to lack of security, ok.

If I left something out, let me know.

Whatever the price, pay it. The cost is temporary. And the cost we ill be far less than the cost of obamacare and the ruination of our healthcare system.

The debt will ruin our economy. The price may be severe, or not, but only temporary.

I just hope that you will be able to count your money. THAT is a bridge too far.
What you have left out Oakton is what sacrifices you PERSONALLY are willing to make today. For example:

* Higher interest rates, ok. -> are you in need of a loan today? will the rising interest rates cost you money?

* Delay in government services ok. -> what government services are you dependent on today that you are willing to sacrifice? are you on welfare? do you work for the feds?

* Stoppage of government services, ok. -> again... how does this effect your life today? what government services are you missing?

* Degrading America's credit rating, ok. -> I don't think you have fully calculated the impact of this you personally. Not a slam on you, because such a thing is difficult for anyone to calculate.

* Delay in getting social security, ok. -> are you on social security today and missing checks? or do you mean you are willing to accept a later retirement age and reduced benefits in exchange for debt reduction?

* No travel outside US, ok. -> did you cancel a trip?

* No airplane travel due to lack of security, ok. -> are you flying soon? is it other people's security you are willing to risk?

See what I mean? You are calling to the troops to go ALL IN. I am asking what is your personal sacrifice. Because if the answer is that you really don't depend much on government services today... than you are not really giving up anything. And it show no courage or bravery or sacrifice for you personally to exhort others to continue causing pain to millions of your countrymen who DO have urgent need for government services.

I suspect the people shouting the loudest are the people least affected. Speaking of sacrifice, would you be willing to have the Rs hold out forever if the shutdown triggered an immediate doubling of all taxes? How would you feel if this affected you in real dollars today?
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Re: What I read in your post...

Post by 133743Hokie »

VoiceOfReason wrote:
oaktonhokie wrote:I said I'll pay the price whatever that is.

Higher interest rates, ok.
Delay in government services ok.
Stoppage of government services, ok.
Degrading America's credit rating, ok.
Delay in getting social security, ok.
No travel outside US, ok.
No airplane travel due to lack of security, ok.

If I left something out, let me know.

Whatever the price, pay it. The cost is temporary. And the cost we ill be far less than the cost of obamacare and the ruination of our healthcare system.

The debt will ruin our economy. The price may be severe, or not, but only temporary.

I just hope that you will be able to count your money. THAT is a bridge too far.
What you have left out Oakton is what sacrifices you PERSONALLY are willing to make today. For example:

* Higher interest rates, ok. -> are you in need of a loan today? will the rising interest rates cost you money?

* Delay in government services ok. -> what government services are you dependent on today that you are willing to sacrifice? are you on welfare? do you work for the feds?

* Stoppage of government services, ok. -> again... how does this effect your life today? what government services are you missing?

* Degrading America's credit rating, ok. -> I don't think you have fully calculated the impact of this you personally. Not a slam on you, because such a thing is difficult for anyone to calculate.

* Delay in getting social security, ok. -> are you on social security today and missing checks? or do you mean you are willing to accept a later retirement age and reduced benefits in exchange for debt reduction?

* No travel outside US, ok. -> did you cancel a trip?

* No airplane travel due to lack of security, ok. -> are you flying soon? is it other people's security you are willing to risk?

See what I mean? You are calling to the troops to go ALL IN. I am asking what is your personal sacrifice. Because if the answer is that you really don't depend much on government services today... than you are not really giving up anything. And it show no courage or bravery or sacrifice for you personally to exhort others to continue causing pain to millions of your countrymen who DO have urgent need for government services.

I suspect the people shouting the loudest are the people least affected. Speaking of sacrifice, would you be willing to have the Rs hold out forever if the shutdown triggered an immediate doubling of all taxes? How would you feel if this affected you in real dollars today?
Quite the contrary. The people shouting the loudest are the ones affected the most financially in all of this. They are the ones footing the majority of the bill for the govt. They are the ones driving the economy. To say they aren't affected because they aren't using the specific services shows naivete and narrow mindedness on your part
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Re: What I read in your post...

Post by VoiceOfReason »

133743Hokie wrote:Quite the contrary. The people shouting the loudest are the ones affected the most financially in all of this. They are the ones footing the majority of the bill for the govt. They are the ones driving the economy. To say they aren't affected because they aren't using the specific services shows naivete and narrow mindedness on your part
Well if that is the case, then the people shouting should not be living in a democracy.

I understand that there is a group of people who feel that taxes today are already too high. They feel that spending could be reduced SO MUCH that not only could we not run a deficit... but lower taxes to boot. Those people are delusional... UNLESS they are proposing DRASTIC cuts to Social Security, Medicaid/Medicare and the Military/Defense Spending. Those 3 things alone, plus mandatory debt service, account for well over 80% of the total budget.

Many elections have been held over fiscal issues and the people have spoken very clearly. They like Social Security. They like Medicare & Medicaid. And they like having a strong military. The question is... how much do they like them? Enough to raise taxes enough to pay for them? Or maybe we should trim the Big 3 down a bit to keep tax increases from being too large?

Back to the original subject... your idea of a "sacrifice" is to be taxed as today's levels? The question was not whether you like the status quo. The question of sacrifice was WHAT ADDITIONAL SACRIFICE are you willing to make to solve the nations problems. Your answer seems to indicate that you feel only others should be making sacrifices. Don't be disappointed then if the status quo continues like it has... because it is this kind of attitude that has help get us here.
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Re: What sacrifices are you willing to make?

Post by RiverguyVT »

VoiceOfReason wrote:NOTE: Sorry for the repost. I originally posted this in the "I WANT a default..." thread, but it got buried in some discussions about a Marxist leader and a malfunctioning machine :mrgreen:

=====

OK, let me make a few key assumptions here:

1) If you are saying that you WANT a fight over the debt ceiling, you must also be willing to live through the possibility that the US will default on it's debt.

Why? Well... no offense... but the general approach by conservatives to "negotiating" is to get concessions from the Ds without giving up anything important. If your goal is to extract meaningful spending cuts from the Ds and offer no tax increases or cuts to programs you support (like the military)... then you are not asking for a reasonable discussion... you are asking to go ALL IN to get your way.

2) You must also be willing for the Rs to be held responsible for the default. No matter what the R Talking Points will be... if you say you want to FIGHT and you want to WIN and not offer anything of value to the Ds... then you must take responsibility for the consequences if the Ds don't immediately roll into the fetal position and give you everything you want. And please don't respond with some version of thinking where you thing the Rs can engineer this fight and then try and lay all the blame on the Ds. Other than conservatives, nobody believed that with the shutdown and nobody will believe it this time either.

QUESTION: So, if this is what you guys mean - FIGHT, risk default, R's show leadership and accountability and hold firm regardless of the harm done... then tell me, what skin do you have in the game? It is somewhat cowardly to exhort people to stand and fight when others will suffer the consequences and you will be fine. What credibility do you guys have?

MY ANSWER: I have plenty of retirement investments in the market and I would like to retire on my own schedule. I have no desire for the market to tank over a fight that can easily be conducted without threatening default. I also have plenty of friends and family who would be significantly harmed financially by another recession. So, while I do agree with some of your goals (no more budget deficits, reduce the debt, reduce spending in areas where people are not disproportionately harmed)... I take issue with using tactics that harm people.

So speak up conservatives! Are you risking your own economic well being? Or are you the guy in the back of the crowd encouraging your friend not to back down from the bully that's about to kick his ass? :shock:
I'm late to this party.

the general approach by conservatives to "negotiating" is to get concessions from the Ds without giving up anything important
LOL...Wut?!

no tax increases
Please do not confuse a tax rate increase with an increase in gov't tax revenues. The key is increasing gov't revenue, not exacting some sort of revenge upon the citizenry as penance for daring to be 'successful'

You must also be willing for the Rs to be held responsible for the default.
Meh. R's and D's alike, who spend more than they receive via revenue. This isn't an "R" vs "D" thing, necessarily. Lot's of R's behaving like D's. No D's behaving like D's of 60 yrs ago. It is a world upside down.

what skin do you have in the game?
Children, and a hope for a future.

It is somewhat cowardly to exhort people to stand and fight when others will suffer the consequences and you will be fine. What credibility do you guys have?
I don't even know what you're trying to say here.

I take issue with using tactics that harm people.

So, you're against the status quo. Welcome to UWS.

Are you risking your own economic well being?

My economic well being has already been badly affected by terrible policy. My economic well being is being badly affected by enacting Obamacare. My personal liberty, and that of my progeny, is trampled by Obamacare.
So I put (the dead dog) on her doorstep!
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Re: What I read in your post...

Post by Marine Hokie »

VoiceOfReason wrote: Well if that is the case, then the people shouting should not be living in a democracy.
This system does not in any sense represent the "will of the people". Most elections are a perceived choice between two people, neither of which is likely to accurately represent the views of those who vote for him (which are generally not much more than half of the voters anyway).

VoiceOfReason wrote:I understand that there is a group of people who feel that taxes today are already too high. They feel that spending could be reduced SO MUCH that not only could we not run a deficit... but lower taxes to boot. Those people are delusional... UNLESS they are proposing DRASTIC cuts to Social Security, Medicaid/Medicare and the Military/Defense Spending. Those 3 things alone, plus mandatory debt service, account for well over 80% of the total budget.
That sounds like a good start.

VoiceOfReason wrote:Many elections have been held over fiscal issues and the people have spoken very clearly. They like Social Security. They like Medicare & Medicaid. And they like having a strong military. The question is... how much do they like them? Enough to raise taxes enough to pay for them? Or maybe we should trim the Big 3 down a bit to keep tax increases from being too large?
Most every government project has people supporting it, and will never let it go. With some exceptions, state programs rarely go down, they typically expand. That electorate votes for a particular candidate serves as justification for a policy is silly. Hundreds of people in congress and two presidents fought wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, even though most people are against them. We were a hair away from Obama attacking Syria, even though most people were against it (including congress even). What if congress voted to attack Syria, would that be the "will of the people," even though Americans were mostly against it?
A man is no less a slave because he is allowed to choose a new master once in a term of years.
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